|Posted by Shamblernaut on 2016/10/16 22:23:12|
|After weeks of mapping, and a few delays, Quake Map Jam 8 has finally been released! This time around there were four submissions,
- Ionous with his map "Buried by Time and Dust"
- Newhouse with "Black Future"
- Pritchard with "One Ranger Two Boomsticks"
- Shamblernaut (myself) with "The Hackopolis" and the start map.
To install, just extract the zip file to your quake directory (remembering to preserve directories). Run using your favourite (limit extending) engine with the commandline options -game jam8 +map jam8_start. Happy fragging!
Progress so far:
+Starting Teleport works now without requiring jumping
-Fix building geometry in some places, so DP knows how to draw places correctly.
-Add more time to replace some items.
-Maybe even tweaking trigger placements for this fiend pit.
But everything else seems to be working just fine.
This might take an extra week or even more to make it work in DP, so if there is decent amount of people wanting play it on that engine, I will try my best.
Look its a 14" CRT monitor
<quote>What was the particular reason for including an old, out of date version of AD in the release?</quote>
It was an oversight, I made the assumption that the mods had updated the topic in the original AD post to the latest version.
eh formatting, you get the idea.
I found an old(ish) version of DP on my computer and gave my maps a quick test. Turns out that its not just the sign (func_wall) that disappears at distance, so do other "world" models. I noticed that a button disappears at a certain distance too on my e1m3 hack.
And I agree with Damage_Inc, it looks pretty badass seeing the red blood in places.
In hindsight I could have prepared the palette, keeping the blood colour, and manually removed that colour from the rest of the textures and models, etc. but at the end of the day I got the best outcome, given the amount of effort that I was prepared to put into it.
It wasn't necessarily directed at this jam or a person in particular, but rather the general attitude many people here seem to have. Obviously, a map done under time pressure can get away with it more easily (although a quick playthrough isn't that much to ask for, either). Proper releases should be tested throroughly, and this includes old vanilla engines as well as at least a selected few new ports apart from Fitzspasm.
Fair enough, I guess the lesson here is never trust the mods... both meanings of the word. :p
I think your method would have been more frustrating than helpful, to be honest. Yes, it could have helped with the particles (which as people have pointed out, is rather unfortunate) but the cost outweighs the benefit I think. I mean, you'd be providing custom skins for every AD asset, as well as forcing people to use the desaturated textures that we avoided by applying the palette in the first place. Perhaps you could have gotten a better overall result, but it would have been an effort ill-suited for a jam...
Wow! I wasn't expecting so many responses to my latest comment. I have quite a number of things to say but I'm typing this on my phone so I'll keep it short for now:
1. Outdated AD: my console says v1.42, which is the latest version available on Quaddicted. Is 1.5 out yet?
2. r\_useportalculling 0: Nope, doesn't do squat. It does, however, seem to fix the glitches NewHouse mentioned earlier about his map.
3. Completely agree with Negke's POV. I have noticed a trend lately: when you check the readmes of maps made just a few years ago, you can see that they've often been tested in several engines among the popular ones, usually 2 to 4. But with the latest maps, mappers seem content to only bother with QS and all other engines could go to hell. That's a big no-no! There's really no need to fragment the Quake community more than it already is.
Rhaaaaahhh, fucking backslash crap! Sorry, I just realized that it's Quaddicted that uses this Markdown crap, not Func_...
In regards to AD being outdated, I think its that you forgot to include the patch.
Your point is valuable, but not always the top priority.
I'm optimistic though.. since I'm trying to figure out what is wrong with the already existing geometry.. looking vertices(triangles) and trying to understand it. I'm by no mean experienced when it comes to that. It is not about optimization in this case, it is something else which I'm not familiar with.
When I stay in one spot, I just move the camera(mouse) a bit and I can clearly see when some of the faces just disappear and screen just draws something else that is clearly behind them or just skyboxes. How do I fix that, what might cause that exactly?
Did it fixed all of the glitches or just that teleport?
2. r_useportalculling 0: Nope, doesn't do squat. It does, however, seem to fix the glitches NewHouse mentioned earlier about his map.
NewHouse, that means you have fucked up portals. DP doesn't know what to do with them, when portal culling is enabled. Check out your compiler for warnings etc.
r_useportalculling 0 didn't fix the teleport, I got through it by jumping as Khreathor mentioned. I was talking about the visual glitches that you experienced. I had some too but they stopped after using this cvar.
I don't know if you noticed it because you mentioned the issue again after I talked about the newer DP builds, but since September DP now supports alpha masked textures (i.e. no more ugly pink thing where there shouldn't be).
This cvar not working was in Shamblernaut's startmap, not in NewHouse's.
Sorry For Triple Posting...
...but I just realized I misunderstood Khreathor's comment. Please disregard previous post.
In Shamblernaut's map there is just z-fighting, because this advertisement billboard is near the wall and is covered by illusionary brush, faking the light. It's quite thick, so it shouldn't do that, but I guess this illusionary brush doesn't help at all and DP doesn't know what to render first.
Maybe you can fix this with some option tweaking, but I spent yesterday like an hour to find some solution, but with no luck.
A neat shader for DP adds lightrays to windows, I'm thinking something similar could perhaps be done with lamp posts? But that would require having 2 versions of the map, one for vanilla-flavored engines and one without the illusionary brushes for engines that support shaders.
One thing's for sure: the noir theme would have greatly benefited DP's lighting capabilities and it's kind of a missed opportunity to have focused on QS.
...then move your ass and do a proper noir map for DP, instead of complaining ;)
The Dark Place
Have to say I did pull something from this conversation. I don't really have an aversion to other engines. In fact, years ago when I first played Quake on the PC I opted to look for "The Ultimate Quake Patch" and DP to ensure I got an up to date experience. Since others have the same thought process I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.
Back on topic, one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more! I am glad NewHouse and Ionous deviated from the literal noir theme and took creative liberties but I also appreciate the more literal usage from Pritchard and Shamblernaut's start map.
Yah, my Sin City/Rumble Fish map is still in the works but progress is slow - firstly I'm still a mapping n00b and have much to learn and secondly it's been delayed by my focus on my jazzy/industrial soundtrack, which I still have to finish.
Anyway, when I release it I'm gonna make sure it runs on several engines, even if it means releasing 2 versions.
Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? At least stuff built for QS ought to work in DP (whether or not it actually does, as discussed, is another matter), but relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.
I think that's why people have moved away from a wider range of engine support in recent times, to be honest. QS has become known for offering the "Quake Standard" experience, providing generally good compatibility for the majority of Quake content without significant user tweaks or other changes. If your map works in QS, it should
work in any other engine that claims to accurately reproduce the original DOS/WinQuake/GlQuake/Whatever Carmack Actually Wrote engines, the implication being that you shouldn't have to worry so much about that stuff.
Call it false advertising, perhaps, but it's a good excuse to get out of something that really isn't much fun.
While i'm here, what's the history behind QS? This probably isn't the thread to ask in, but it's kind of topical considering Mugwump's comments about fragmentation and how a "few years ago" maps seemed to be better tested. I know QS first popped up at some point in 2010 (The first commit
on SF, for example) and that it's based on FitzQuake, but how long did it take for the engine to reach the status it has today?
I will definitely at least do a run through on future releases on various engines to ensure stability.
That's the spirit!
one of the big aspects of the noir theme that I was hoping for was the street lights on dark streets and I got a taste of it but wanted more!
I know the feeling. I mean, what I've played so far looks good but I expected more experimentations with chiaroscuro.
Would you really want to build something that's engine specific though? (...) relying on DP's graphical "enhancements" to make your map look correct is a recipe for compatibility disaster.
Nope. As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions. When GLQuake came out, some people released both software and GL versions of their maps and I'm bent on ensuring max compatibility so that players are free to play it in their engine of choice.
Certainly not a bad thing, but releasing/maintaining multiple versions of a map for different engine ports seems like a pretty good example of why people shy away from supporting a lot of different engines... That's a lot of work, and it's not like there's an easy way to merge maps back together as progress is made. (I mean, i'm sure with some good regex you can get all the brush/entity numbers to like up again or whatever you need to do to make that stuff work).
I think the situation you're talking about is compatibility disaster ground zero, to be honest. When you're supporting a "fractured" map release, that's like... peak fracturing.
Would a better solution be to have a "DarkPlaces Only" spawnflag on all entities? That way you'd be able to do most of the changes that are necessary in one map...
Yes, it's more work, but what's the point of releasing anything if you won't cater to the players?
You have a good point about ground zero but at any rate, I still find it preferable than willingly excluding part of the community. The ideal solution would of course be that engine devs get together to define some kind of standard, but good luck with that!
I don't understand that spawnflag stuff yet. I'll need to look into it at some point. Would that enable/disable specific features of a map depending on the engine?
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