|Posted by Shamblernaut on 2016/10/16 22:23:12|
|After weeks of mapping, and a few delays, Quake Map Jam 8 has finally been released! This time around there were four submissions,
- Ionous with his map "Buried by Time and Dust"
- Newhouse with "Black Future"
- Pritchard with "One Ranger Two Boomsticks"
- Shamblernaut (myself) with "The Hackopolis" and the start map.
To install, just extract the zip file to your quake directory (remembering to preserve directories). Run using your favourite (limit extending) engine with the commandline options -game jam8 +map jam8_start. Happy fragging!
Black Future -> First Update
#104 posted by Newhouse
on 2016/10/20 15:04:50
Okay, here you go:
Here is updated version of my jam map, replace the jam files and run. There is also ReadMe especially for Darkplaces users, it simple just point out this console command which made the visual glitches disappear.
Teleport is fixed now (I tested it couple times). Also made small changes there and there.
Please let me know, how does it feel now. After all there is no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, for the standalone version I need to start from the scratch almost.
#105 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/20 15:21:22
I'll DL it when I get access to an online computer, probably tonight (GMT+1) and I'll let you know.
As for no much plans for me to continue working on this specific map, I don't know what the jam rules entail regarding deadlines and updates, but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map.
Also, it's probably too much extra work for this version but if you remake it as standalone, make sure you follow Khreathor's advice in post #90 instead of making users disable that cvar.
#106 posted by dwere
on 2016/10/20 15:21:43
FWIW, the versioning of AD is confusing. You've got a v1.42patch2, and you've got a v1.42srslyfinal. Which package looks like a final version?
As I said, I would make sure it runs on several engines, no matter if I have to release 2 versions.
So instead of compatibility disaster you'd get a maintenance disaster.
I'm really fed up with source ports for popular games not being standartized, to be honest. There's a general assumption that if you only support one niche of engines, you're missing out on potential players, but the amount of PITA and sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.
I'm talking more about Doom than Quake here, but certain things are even worse in Quake.
#107 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/20 15:48:55
sacrifices you have to make for the broadest compatibility is hardly comparable to the player having to use more than one source port.
You're not wrong but personally, I don't like being forced to use a different engine as I enjoy DP's graphical features very much. And conversely, I'm aware that there's a number of people who wouldn't touch DP with a hazmat suit even if their lives depended on it, and I still want these people to play my maps. "Don't do unto others...", right? You might call that overkill but I'm a perfectionist.
The Point Is That
#108 posted by Rick
on 2016/10/20 16:29:17
Any source port engine that claims to be "Quake" ought to run Quake maps. If it can't, it's not a "Quake Engine".
Does Darkplaces actually claim to be a Quake engine?
If it does, but won't properly run maps that work fine in Fitzquake and Quakespasm, then go complain to the Darkplaces developer. Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker.
I Think I Had The Same Conversation Recently
#109 posted by dwere
on 2016/10/20 16:42:52
I wouldn't exactly call QS vanilla and faithful. It supports a lot of things vanilla didn't support.
Of course, if a given QS map breaks in DP due to some kind of oversight (instead of the feature sets not overlapping very well), then it's another story.
On a vaguely related note, GLQuake isn't a Quake engine, apparently, because if I'll make a button glowing in the dark due to fullbright pixels, no one will ever notice it. I don't think that counts as "properly".
If I was to summarize somehow: compatibility is a pain in the ass, always was.
#110 posted by Newhouse
on 2016/10/20 18:01:52
"...but if I were you I'd add some details to the facade of the first building you get out of. When you look at it from the other side of the collapsed street, it looks very empty compared to the rest of the map."
That is good point, to be honest I thought it just felt right. There wasn't anything special, so there wasn't focus points at all. But I will do add more details like windows, newspapers, couple streetlights, cardboard boxes and stuff like that, but those will be for the next update.
If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there (but the link should lead to the latest update then).
I will try to look at what is broken and fix that, and maybe later it is possible to play without using that r_useportalculling 0. But at the moment, DP users need to do that extra thing (at least it works).
To be fair the thing that broke in my map was z fighting between world geometry and entities with alpha tags. The error was only visible because of the alpha tag. The alpha tag wasn't a thing in glquake from what I recall.
Not exactly vanilla.
Anyway, let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam, we have other (more relevant) boards that we can discuss engine fragmentation in.
Just Got To Confess
#112 posted by adib
on 2016/10/20 22:05:58
I wasn't believing this jam too much, but people did a great job. True noir vibe. Congrats to all. And warm regards to start map trolls. I recommend taking a look at this one before bitching further.
#113 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/20 23:58:20
Start map trolls? Uh, what?! Since when is it trolling or bitching to warn an author of an issue with an engine, exactly? Unless I took your comment wrong, in that case please disregard what I've just said (I'm french so even if I can speak a pretty good english, I may not always detect all the nuances of the english language).
Don't come here and gripe about it to the map maker.
Well until the engine is fixed we don't have many other options, do we? Furthermore, not taking several popular engines into consideration IS an oversight on the map maker's part, so "griping" about it is indeed relevant. I admit it's more difficult to take the time to do that in the context of a jam with a deadline, though.
let's try to keep the discussion related to the mapjam
Gotcha. Sorry for the OT. Any further discussion on the matter will be moved to General Abuse.
#114 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 01:05:20
Update downloaded. More on that later.
If it is possible I would like to share that link even in Quakeaddicted site, when it will be uploaded there
Just make sure that Shamblernaut includes the updated version in the zip that will be sent to Spirit. Oh by the way, it's Quaddicted, not Quakeaddicted.
#115 posted by Newhouse
on 2016/10/21 08:17:03
We have heard you, and now it is just everyone's own decision what to do with their maps, after all jam is over now. This is just the hobby not the real job.
I do care that people want quality, but it is not the meaning of these jams. Look what there is instead of what there isn't. Some of us maybe, will be making standalone versions, so in that sense feedback is always welcome. But sometimes feedback might feel a bit more salty than sugary.
#116 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 15:07:26
Why are you saying that? I'm cool, I just brought some constructive criticism. On the contrary, it's comments like #108 that seem bitter and uncalled for.
Anyway, I've played your updated map and it's good to go. I only had one random crash near the beginning but it didn't happen again - I had much more of these with the previous version, notably in the part with all the red lights where you first fight a bunch of plasma enforcers and those dudes on flying discs.
Reviews are coming.
#117 posted by NewHouse on 2016/10/21 15:27:09
I just tried to let's all stay on the topic, that is why I didn't target it to someone especially. Sorry if I made it unclear what I meant.
What kind of crashes did you experienced? As I can tell there is some portals I should try to fix next.
#118 posted by NewHouse on 2016/10/21 16:15:53
To be honest I don't know why I write down it that way, I clearly didn't meant to hurt anyone. It just feel unfair that there are people commenting and giving good feedbacks and I also want respond to some of them... but it is hard to find all of them after all this DP/engine conversation. I just wanted to make it very clear that some of us will support DP and some don't.
#119 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 16:32:25
With the first version, I had returns to desktop with error messages like these:
Mem_Free: trashed head sentinel (alloc at :187240688, sentinel check at ../../../cl_parse.c:1698)
Mem_Free: not allocated or double freed (free at ../../../gl_rmain.c:3788)
as well as some without any message.
With the new version I had no message.
I had no crash issues with the other maps but it could be possible that they're DP-related bugs: I'm using one of the latest autobuilds (for the support of alpha masked textures) and they are known for not being extra-stable.
However, I'm having a lot of non-crashing issues in the console. Things like portals clipped away, empty submodels or activator (func_train) errors. I could upload a condump later tonight if you want.
Sooooooo... On Topic: Review Part 1
#120 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 18:43:32
Start 4.5/5 - Hackopolis 3/5
Awesome mood in the start map! You definitely got the noir vibe right and I love the lighting (except in the cinema hall that could use some more contrasts) and all the little details: the car at the gas station (could be less boxy though), the blinking lights on the barrier, the crime scene in the back alley... The film projection reminds me of Duke's Hollywood Holocaust in a more SFW manner. "Enter the movie" is a neat idea!
Some nitpicks: I don't like the unbreakability of the store windows and the invisible wall at the tunnel entrance. It would've been better to put an actual barrier here, like at the other end of the street. I also wish that the windows on the cinema facade were transparent and that we could visit the cashier's office and toilets (I hate non-unlockable doors!). I noticed white fullbright pixels on the sides of the car's hood and something really weird when you look at the foliage brushes of trees from the side: they appear empty and make a very visible 8-pixel wide hole in the foliage. Also, the texture used for light cones isn't homogenous and the result looks odd up close.
I was a bit disappointed that you didn't use my idea of renaming the skill settings according to noir film classics, but I can see an echo of that in the movie posters. One thing though: some of them don't really fit the map titles and/or themes. Metropolis and Gun Crazy are spot-on, but The Killers for what's essentially a zombie-fest is somewhat missing the bullseye. Umm, hello? George Romero's Night of the Living Dead? How could you possibly pass on that?! Granted it's not a noir film but neither is Metropolis. Plus, the namesake would have been a great nod to "the other Romero"... As for Kiss of Death, I don't see the connection to The Hackopolis either.
Speaking of, that second map is disappointing (especially after such a great introduction), though not as disastrous as some others made it out to be. Yes, it was very obviously not made for this jam, but I found it rather pleasant to play. Not as good as the original E1M3 because of its more straightforward architecture and linear gameplay, but still a worthwhile variation on its ancestor.
The worst part of it is the lighting, very flat in B&W. The yellow/orange particles above the torches look weird, especially since the flames themselves are not colored. On the contrary, the fullbright red band on the ogres' grenades and yellow (not green, why?) spit of scrags look neat, very Sin Cityesque. Ammo and health are a bit too plentiful on skill 2.
Great title for a small but enjoyable map. I like the architecture, with that road winding upward and the ruined mansion. The chapel, on the other hand, looks a bit unremarkable.
Gameplay is interesting, with some narrative progression, and having only the shadow axe (yeah, I found the secret only after having killed everyone, so it was pretty much useless) to gib zombies gives it a survival horror vibe that feels refreshing in Quake.
About that, it's odd that both you and NewHouse chose to give the player only an axe in the beginning and have zombies wake up later on, triggered by picking up a weapon. Did you two exchange notes and ideas or was it pure coincidence?
Anyway, on to the cons... There's a large hole on the mansion's top floor where you can get stuck in - it's too deep to jump out of. The end is very anticlimactic: you jump down in that dark hole and that's it! A final fight against some tough monster(s) would've been nice, either in a pit/arena below or in the chapel itself. The lighting is very flat. Interiors are good if a bit overly dark but the exteriors could have used some chiaroscuro.
If you wish to update your map, I suggest you add some lamp posts or torches in order to have bright spots and tone down the ambient light to make the rest look darker. Also, the scrolling sky looks bad in B&W: firstly the lower layer has some black (or dark grey, hard to tell) pixels that look weird against the white clouds in the upper layer and secondly, it isn't seamless and the texture edges are very noticeable. A skybox would have been much better. One last point: there is only one secret but the centerprint says "second secret"... WT
Review Part 2
#121 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 18:44:39
Second best playable map (as in "not a start map" - there's no real gameplay in those) in this jam. There's a real sense of raiding a mob lair, too bad the modified grunt wasn't ready in time! All the breakables are a lot of fun but can be tricky since [SPOILER] two of the secrets depend on not destroying certain crates to be accessible. [END SPOILER] Good lighting as well, especially in the last hallway before "Don Vito Shambleone".
I wish the windows were a little more transparent to better see through them. If you are planning an update or standalone version, here's a few issues to address: a misaligned texture on the right side of the building above the bar, an invisible wall above the palisade (why can't we visit the alley behind it?), the first bar sign inside the corridor pointing to the wall when you look at it from behind and a similar situation with the reversed texture of the sign outside. Oh, and there's way too much ammo and health on skill 2, and way too many non-unlockable doors.
Wow! The star of the show! Very impressive for a jam map and only your second release. How much time did you spend on that thing?! Great architecture with an amazing level of detail - I especially like the bits of futuristic tech apparent behind the old crumbling brick walls, giving a sense of being some kind of lab rat in an experiment gone very wrong. All the flickering lights, cobwebs and sparks are a nice touch and enhance the derelict atmosphere of the place.
The gameplay is solid too with several variations along the way, despite a little bit of linearity in the interiors. It's one thing that I didn't like much in there, where you repeatedly close the path behind the player, forcing his progression into one direction. Yes, I know there are no alternative routes in this section but it would've been better if there were.
Then again, the rest is so good that it's inconsequential. The last part where you blast your way through the horde of zombies to the tough final fight is very intense and much fun. All the stocked up ammo and scattered power-ups sure come in handy! I somehow missed one frag and found only 7 secrets, though I didn't look too hard for them.
I already liked your previous map very much, this one is a significant improvement and confirms that your style is right up my alley. I can't wait to play your next map!
One thing I've noticed is that you seem to be very fond of grates: your first map already started with some but here they're literally everywhere! On the lights, on the floors, on the walls... I'm not complaining because they add some detail, I just find it kinda funny.
One final note: I played this map with the soundtrack you originally chose and it was great! It added a feeling of oppression to the game and I highly suggest that everyone plays with it: download Dhia by Diogenes In Hell, rename it to Track11, convert it if necessary, put it in jam8\sound\cdtracks and enjoy! It's a very quiet ambient track so I had to set the music volume to max and the sound volume to about 0.4 in order for it to be audible enough. Why didn't you include it in the release? Was it a matter of size? At any rate, you should at least add these instructions to the readme.
#122 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 18:55:57
Part 1 misses a "F?" after "WT" at the end...
#123 posted by NewHouse on 2016/10/21 22:30:50
Thank for your long feedback.. I will try to write something back tomorrow. But now I want to say something about that track I choose.. I was planning on cutting down its lenght, but didn't have enough time for that.. but will definately use it for the standalone version*
#124 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/21 23:06:44
You're welcome. I wouldn't shorten the track if I were you. It starts very quietly but gains some intensity afterwards, and I find that this build-up complements the gameplay perfectly. So sure, a 23min track makes a quite large file (about 50Mb for an .ogg @320kbps, more than the jam download itself!) but it's worth it IMHO.
#125 posted by adib
on 2016/10/22 04:54:15
I was just joking about some guys complain about the need of a start map for a jam, that's all. Not something specific you or anybody else said. I do think start maps are a nice "wrap" and room for creativity. And I'm not native English speaker as well.
#126 posted by Barnak
on 2016/10/22 05:02:25
I'm the guy who were asking for start maps, since they put you into the proper mood and atmosphere. It's like preliminaries in sex... sort of.
I guess some guys here don't like preliminaries, and want to ejaculate as fast as possible... poor girl ! (or guy ?).
#127 posted by Mugwump
on 2016/10/22 05:26:04
@adib OK, cool.
@Barnak Yeah, and this particular one is as moody as they come. I love it! I totally agree with you and when I'll get to release maps, I'm thinking about making start maps, even for one single map. Walking through a slipgate is so much more fun than typing commands in the console!
#128 posted by NewHouse on 2016/10/22 10:41:58
Thanks for your highly detailed review* And it makes me happy you liked my map and things I put there.. I am glad that quite many has give me such a good feedback and surely try to keep improving for my next realises.
I try answer some of your questions now:
Working time -> 2 weeks - school, since after week and half I needed to start everything from the scratch (remember seeing early images of my map? Those doesn't look anything like this end result).
Why so much grates, you ask? -> well grates has two purposes here. 1) they have real purpose to be part of sewer systems. 2) symbolic meaning that you're trapped inside, you're like in a prison with all these zombies and future alien soldiers. I wanted to make a feeling that player can't escape what is coming next.
Why so linear? -> adding alternative paths can increase the level complexity yet level designer can easily lost the main focus. And also non-linearity might not have made anything good for the map's flow, simce even though this was quite linear there still was some parts the pacing might not be the best possible... so personally I want learn to make first quite linear maps, before trying something I am not familiar with yet.
Also thank you for sharing information about my first update in QuakeOne, you literally was faster than I.
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