cough... 

vondur tells it like it is.

Another ace map by The Caveman! 

The end area with the caves filled with water was kinda good!
The rock floor suddenly sliding open to reveal LAVA TRAP was not so kinda good. 

played it yet, but after a quick look I also thought the cave area looked pretty nice. 

OH FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WHHHHYYY

please polish maps before release
and please playtest maps before release :S 

i though it had lots of fun parts. what i hate is that madfox gets lots of maps finished and i cant even make more than 2 rooms!! is not that i cant, is that im not isnpired to do something, even though i really want to. :( 

Well, I think architecture globally looks good. I like first and second screenshots' layout and texture use, even if there exist some "misaligned" or "not very good aligned" texture sometimes..
For example, in the second screenshot: the pillar size doesn't allow you to have a good texture alignement on its base in order to have a regular "brick building"... take a look at the two central pilars' for example.. you have normal brick and really thiny ones !!! That makes pillars look crappy IMHO...
For the third screenshot, texture use is a little "boring" due to its "uniformity"... I know it's difficult to have some cool texture effects on huge area (I have to solve the same problem for my new incoming map...), but I really think it should be improved by the add of differents rocks texture, or something like this...
Regarding lightning effects, it's not bad at all compared to you latest map!!! I think you really improved the stuff !!!
Gameplay is enjoyable and I had fun while playing the level...
So, good work MadFox... keep it up !!! 

in my 17 mins of playing the map, I felt constantly unchallenged, given pentagram and quad powerups for no reason at all, felt lost most of the time, wasted all my shotgun ammo on a bleeding window, and then was killed in a goddamn stupid instant death lava trap.

can't say I enjoyed myself. 

.. don't be so cruel !!! And at least encourage MadFox for all his efforts in level design !! Even if his map is not as perfect as you would like, you must agree that MadFox have many much ideas than us to be able to produce each week (or 2weeks) a brand new map !!!
Like aguirRe said me in my very early time of "level designer" (if I can be called like this...): "...map quality and improvement will come with practice..." ...so, go MadFox go !!! I'm supporting you... keep it up!!! And don't be discouraging by "Mister Negative".. ...even if I can understand Scampie opinion... ;) 

yes with practice..
madfox won't learn on his own mistakes, and his practice leads to nothing. he still releases alpha state bollox ignoring our hints not to do so...
so please don't ask madfox to keep IT up, otherwise we'll all die here... 

well, electro. If you caught the readme you would know I tried to polish the map well, but this one was so "cranky" I lost my goodwill after compiling several maps with MAX_TEX INFO.

It's such a desillusion to get this message, after times of compiling.
So I could reprimand myself, otherwise I had thrown it away as a bunch of waiste.

The strange thing in this map was the fact I didn�t want to see one square corner in it.
But my compiler reacted rather tricky. I once builed it again from scratch, but it didn�t work. Then I rearranged brushes, but then my compiler got stuck. It must have something to do with the brushes, which are all off-grid.
So it is a small wonder this map excists.

What you mentioned JPL I really noticed, but by retexturing the pillar size,the map wouldn't compile. Feel sorry for it, but that's the way it is.
Same for other brush clips, as soon as I compared them I couldn't make a bsp of it.
True the texture could have been better, but I reached the maximum tex info.
No brush extra for this whishing well.

Sorry Scampie if my invention didn't start you up. Good I didn't finished it with a praxinoscope, I might see Shub-Nigurath giving me a wink.
You must be a good player to finish it with a useless Pentagram and Quad powerup! 

I can only repeat that the gameflow is again the most serious problem in this release.

At one time I had reached an area above the GK and after killing a nearby scrag, I got the message "Door opened". What door, I wondered and after some searching I found it to be a door which purpose I still don't understand.

After another frustrating search, I finally realized that suddenly the big teleporter in one of the cave floors (far, far away) now went to a different place (something I actually anticipated earlier but after trying, it didn't seem to work - then).

Another bad choice was the aforementioned lava trap that, apart from being an IDT, also seemed to be an essential route to follow to progress further.

Like Scampie, I was also surprised by the bleeding windows and invisible obstacles, not very intuitive.

But except for the above issues, I found the map quite enjoyable to play, especially after adding some sunlight. Monsters/weapons/ammo was good and even, except for the massive boss fight (one standard grunt ...).

Brushwork was pretty messy with the patented Borg layout and a rather big HOM in one area, but the caves were nice and texture choices were better than previous maps.

MadFox's best map so far. 

Question: Is there even one remotely valid reason why you choose to map without the grid?

After looking at the map for the briefest of moments, I noticed widespread thin slithers of badly joined brushwork (this is really noticable in r_drawflat), no real texture alignment, and even a few HOMs - all of which would be avoided by using the grid. No doubt all the bizarre compiler errors you mentioned are also a result of this gridless building technique.

JPLambert: Please. Listen to Vondur. You don't have to praise Madfox for the sake of praising him. This board is not a popularity contest, it's a mapping board, and one its functions is to tell mappers where they are going wrong and how they can improve. 

This board is not a popularity contest, it's a mapping board, and one its functions is to tell mappers where they are going wrong and how they can improve.

That may be true; however, to clarify, that does not give license to flame, disrespect, humiliate, or degrade other mappers.

But there have been many constructive comments on this map, and MadFox would be wise to take those into consideration when creating maps in the future. 

agree in 200% not all the people are so good as other�s but madfox is getting better is earlyer maps was much bad... he is getting better, keep on it mate!

sorry all for my F**King English...roulf! 

i was too mean, sorry
but you know...eh..ok nevermind... 

unlike myself. That, I admire. 

rocketman must be your hero, then. 

he """finishes""" maps, yes. 

that second three "s in a row made the board explode 

See here: http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=596&start=132 

... I was not supporting MadFox for pleasure, I was just supporting him because he try to do his best, like everybody here, and he made many efforts on this map (while everything is not perfect, I agree..): I remind everybody we are here to learn from each others... For pro mappers it seems to be a waste of time (because they know "all about all"), but for beginners (like me) it's very important to have feedback about our work. Good or bad comments are welcomed and sure we have to use them as much as we can to know what to do, or not to do, in our future releases..... BUT, I fully agree with RPG point of view: we are not here to flame, disrespect, humiliate, or degrade other mappers... Just think about it...
So, I just think MadFox is on a right way, he have just to choose a better tool (regarding last aguirRe post), a better methodology, take much more care about what he does, and learn from other mappers... that's all...;) 

What I don't understand is - Why does Madfox continue to release the same maps?
This map was also included in the "sixpack" Madfox released last year, together with the two maps he released a month or two ago!
How about releasing some of the new stuff he has shown pics of! 

This teleport that takes you to different places. It's the one at the bottom of the deep, deep pit, yes?

I ask because the first time I was working through the map I quicksaved just before it and it took me to a place with a bunch of monsters (ogres and enforcers, I think) which ended in a door that made a "plingy-lingy-ling" noise (like when you find a secret) and you were back in the outside area. I had to stop the game at that point and quit without saving. Now when I quickload the teleport seems to take me to a SNG and some railings that overlook the gold key. And I can't find my way back to the plingy door thing. Or maybe it's just my lack of sleep.

But about the map: it's a huge step forward but still overly convoluted and aimless. If you could just sort out aligning textures and get over your "must use every inch of space and make the player backtrack through each area at least six times" fixation I think you'll make some nice maps.

It felt like a much more playable map than your previous efforts and looked tons better but I'm still hopelessly lost and will never finish it.

Keep trying... I hated the first draft of this map when you released it in that pack but this was a million times better. Only another million to go... :-) 

Maybe MadFox can explain the details but for me the tele went to two places. The first time to some area in the upper part of the map and the second time to the otherwise inaccessible lower cave part of the map. The cave section is mostly rock textured so it's easy to recognize.

Compared to an earlier version of the map, the entire lower and better-looking cave area is new and the upper part significantly retextured in a better way.