Has it ever occurred to you pea brain that some people don't care about coop and deathmatch in SP maps? 

I don't have enough friends to play coop with :C

Thanks for the reminder tbh 

You don't need friends for co-op. None of my friends play Quake or any video games for that matter. I've been asking around for a while for people who wanted to do AD co-op or even regular co-op but only one person has taken me up on it so far. 

The latest Q1SP release has coop and DM support: http://celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61620

This means this thread has succeeded and can now be closed. 

I have a friend who likes Quake but doesn't play custom maps except for when I ask him to test mine. We only co-op console games however. Our go-to is Halo: Reach Firefight mode with player speed turned way up and gravity turned way down.

Is there more to supporting co-op than putting in co-op starts and making sure there aren't any changing brushes that would block players from returning from start? I imagine in some cases ammo distribution might be an issue. 

i feel like there are threads every few years where people say "you guys forgot about co-op!"

2005: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=31035

2010: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=60436

2016: http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=61291

I agree with them, so glad we're talking about it again. 

Is there more to supporting co-op than putting in co-op starts and making sure there aren't any changing brushes that would block players from returning from start?

Anything the mapper can think off, as long as a coop only switch can be added, which is not hard if placing the coop starts where the first player cannot reach. Most common feature is to add some ways to get fast into the action after dying. 

 

And we might see more consideration for co-op.

Or at least some way of saving co-op progress for MP, some of these maps are long as shit! 

I also remember coop enables a different way to play a map solo - you respawn at the start but ofc whatever you have killed so far stays dead, and weapon pickups respawn/persist (but not ammo? I forget)

It allows an alternative to spastically hammering the quicksave shortcut as a coping technique for the combat challenged 

 

Sounds like a good theme for a map jam! Actually, I've been playing around with a few coop only ideas in my head, but haven't got around to mapping them yet.

Map jams don't really suit my mapping style, though, so I wouldn't participate. 

I think I had the keyboard keys memorized that navigated to the page where you select the level to play coop.

Also, didn't the game used to ask funny questions when you quit? What happened to that?


Coop:
All my maps are made for coop as any map should. Some features that I've used that could be interesting for a jam:
•Trapping both sets of players initially in two different prison cells (Limbo 2), where you have to rely on your friend(s) in the other area to let you out by shooting a somewhat hidden button. (Had a crusher trap in case you only had 2 players that ended up on the same side.)
•Shifting teleport destination. At the beginning of Terracity I had a teleporter that changed destination as the map progressed to save some time walking back from the spawn.
•Exposing alternate paths as the level progresses. For truly good examples of this, see sock maps.
•Exposing more weapons at the start. I had cages that opened at the start of Terracity after each weapon was found "in the wild" so if you died you could grab them all again before teleporting back into the action.
•Double pressure plates requiring two people to stand on at once. Basically just well spaced buttons that reset doors in front of a hidden trap shooter too quickly for one player to activate both at once.


I started mapping specifically because me and my sisters loved playing coop so much that I made my own levels for us/them to play. They were my guinea pigs and my customers. I love the idea of a coop jam. AD has great features for this if we do it at some point. 

Uncoopable maps are by handicapped authors who don't have enough diversity to do what every 1997 map author could do.

When the newest uncoopable map is released, I am only reminded that they don't have the same level of talent as the people who made Insomnia, Travail, Soul of Evil, or Warpspasm. Yet they had greater tools to perform their obviously lessor works.

And it's true!

You may find what I have to say as unpleasant to current crop of incapable mappers, but nevertheless everyone agrees with it. Not even those that hate this thread are disputing it, which means it is a "true fact".

Current map authors using greater tools are unable to do what previous map authors could do (i.e. you are not a metlslime, czg, necros, tronyn, distrans). They have better tools but their skill level is unable to maximize the value unlike those that came before them due to them not knowing enough about Quake.

True fact! And despite those who would object, none of them dispute it.

My only goal is knowledge, therefore although winning the argument, I think I have failed.

But only in the short term ... I think there is a "lost chapters", but for a future time ,,,

Right?

And perhaps this future time knows something obvious even today ... but who knows! Exactly! Right?

/Lets go! Submit! 

We could make Gunter put it on his fvf server so we could faff about the maps looking for exploits. Also if there was some iteration of a cooperative server where new releases could be uploaded to to play on perhaps more maps would come with cooperative mode in mind so the creators can watch us get lost and die embarrassing deaths in real time. 

My only goal is knowledge

Knowledge? Well, you're only succeeding in offending people. If you are just looking to pass on your vast store of wisdom on game design then why the incendiary language and insults?

I don't get it. 

gotcha, on it. 

I never play coop. What are the requirements to convert a sp to coop-compatible? 

add 4 coop spawns 

You're a fucking buffoon who should probably lay off the booze. That's bad for both your health and our collective sanity. If you're so nostalgic of coop maps, why don't you make them yourselves?

The fact that some people even indulge you here is utterly baffling to me. Do us all a favor and shut the fuck up. 

Not so fast. Just adding coop starts isn't enough if a map is designed to trap the player in. Sometimes you need coop only teleports that open up to let coopers or your respawned self back in to the trap or past it. 

https://imgflip.com/i/2h8lpt 

Tempted to close the thread on that one. But maybe not quite yet.

I must say the ability to add a few coop starts and a triggerable teleporter (a la E1M3) in any locked areas is truly a fantastic level of mapping skill that distinguishes the greats of the past from the incompetent grovelling wannabes today. 

Insomnia and Warp Spasm have coop "support", but are fucking boring in coop because of how huge they are.

Vondur's maps are coopable - but it doesn't take a genius to figure out they're simply not built for coop.

Making maps for coop is not difficult, but it's annoying, since you either need to bin all the interesting gameplay ideas* or add shitty workarounds like the e1m3 teleporter.

* - Contract Revoked breaks in coop almost immediately with how some doors and bridges are built - they could have been changed to be coop friendly, resulting in neutered, zero challenge gameplay.

And that's what coop is, at its root: Q1SP where the penalty for dying is being bored.

No one cares about coop. This can be proved scientifically.

Take a representative sample of players and ask them how often do they coop.

Some will have a fond memory of cooping that one time, yes. Most won't, since coop isn't interesting even in the most coop friendly map.

Of all the things that contributed to Quake's longevity, coop is by and far not one of them. 

Quite.

It's entirely possible that the reason modern maps don't have co-op is something other than lack of skill.