Could you show some examples of this predictability and thus 100% skill -based tactics to dealing with them?

I propose: a 100% demo of Fifth's map with no damage taken from Spawns. 

OTP, skill 0 run only please. 

Not 100% and not no damage but I did it, and chances are it might be the best thing you watch tonight. 

Good work man. I can't even beat it myself, the tower room is brutal. 

I really liked the maps that were suitable to play through first go without any luck involved. Yeah, those ones.

JUST KIDDING.

Seriously though, it was a pretty damn good pack in it's style. Much kudos to all the mappers who managed to pull this lot out of their collective asses in a mere 4 days - very impressive turnout, and very impressive maps for the schedule. If only an extra day had been allowed for any form of playtesting, it would have been great.

E4 is a kinda odd theme (or lack thereof) and this shows in the variety of results. Some maps captured well the very E4-y bits (random corridors etc), some captured the OTT gameplay, some were just decent maps in their own right.

I think out of the pack, I like Pulsar's a lot with the combination of both a funky angled remake of E4 bits and fusing well-known bits of maps together, that was really fun popping out from a bit of E4Mx into a bit of E4My. I also liked Skacky's for the general and impressive high quality designs, it felt much more like a full proper map that someone had accidentally put a spawn pit in.

The others were mostly good but didn't stand out as much, perhaps because E4 isn't as catchy or immediately attractive as, say, "Rubicon / Metal / Zerstorer", so that semi-turtle maps don't have as a strong a hook in that theme.

GGWP all anyway. 

100% demo. Took one hit.
http://quaketastic.com/files/demos/rjam4_fifth_skill0_paru.zip 

I don't think anyone saying it CAN'T be done. A broken clock is right twice a day. They're saying it's not an act of skill as much as luck. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSNNav2eYwk 

:D I've beaten EricW's map yesterday.

And what I've learned playing those maps so far is: tarbabies are an *incomplete* challenge. They may seem broken, but that's because they're only complete when combined with proper placement and map geometry. They're the monster that immerses the map geometry into the combat the most.

Memorize their locations, plan escape routes, figure out the best spots from where to attack them on each situation, time your movement, and they become really fun to fight against.

If you fail, they become unpredictable; that's the punishment they give you, a punishment that's more consequential than the mere act of being hit or killed by a monster. 

Cos that is one of the easiest in the pack as regards tarbabies (out of my 3 play throughs I only got hit by one spawn, once). As regards running away from Shamblers and a Vore right into a nail trap and then almost certainly dying because you won't have enough health left after an over-long underwater journey and going through the nail trap the first time, it's a different deal, but that's not the issue at stake.

What I would like to see is someone quicksaving before the death pit in SKACKY's map, then doing that section, say, 5 times in a row without taking damage from the Spawn (other monster damage is fine). At least two of those occasions should be without triggering the 2 Shamblers on one side of the pit, and thus running out of Quad before facing them and the Spawn drop. Since fighting them is "100% skill" and apparently not "unpredictable", then it should be a repeatable process, right?? 

When I was done I briefly felt bad for not recording demos, and not being able to come up with any substantial, constructive criticism, but then I remembered the torture you horrible monsters had just put me through.

Have a Youtube playlist instead: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoGPuWBXfT0clBFKhqqyg_VrZv7Mlsnef

The gist of my feelings is that each of you captured Episode 4 one way or another, whether gameplay, architecture, lighting, or some combination of all three; my inner masochist took a great deal of pleasure especially in all the smartass traps. Really impressive what people can come up with in only four days, and I'm honored to find myself in the company of such head cases. 

 

Yeah they jump around randomly. Deal with it. That's where your skill comes in. If it's at a distance, get your shotgun out and make use of the point-and-click functionality of your mouse.

If it's jumping into your face, time to eat those fucking crisps.*

I'm guessing the people who insist spawn combat is more about luck than skill are probably the same people that "suck" and are possibly also "lame".

* ("eat those fucking crisps" is what my rugby coach used to yell at us when he wanted us to run really fast. Apparently he saw the act of alternately raising one's hands during the running motion as vaguely reminiscent of someone eating potato-based snack products.) 

A creature that moves randomly without indication of what it's about to do is, inherently, a luck based opponent. 

http://i.imgur.com/gMqZwOZ.jpg 

Warren's REKage of Kinn's so-called argument....looks like 100% skill to me. Or is it 100% common sense? One of the two anyway. 

It's not random. Difficult to predict, but it always comes after you. The constant bouncing goes all over but you can learn pretty much what it's going to do in a given situation.

Lowering the health and damage in RRP made them a lot more palatable without taking away the challenge and style of the monster.

Making them pause after each jump spoiled their erratic nature a bit though. 

Yes, dealing with a luck-based opponent requires skill to deal with the whatever that opponent throws at you (hitting you, exploding in face, etc). But what exactly that opponent throws at you in any given situation is not controllable by skill. 

"It's not random"

but...

"The constant bouncing goes all over"

"erratic nature"

...errrr?? Sounds random to me, homie.

Also if they weren't random and you could learn what they would do in a given situation, why would they need to be made more palatable? Surely if it's pure skill, then the health and damage is irrelevant as one can reliably use skill to outwit them?? 

Just because a monster moves randomly doesn't mean the outcome of a fight against it is like rolling a dice.

Years ago spawns used to give me trouble. Now they give me hardly any trouble, does that mean I'm becoming a luckier player?

Watching otp's demo of fifth's map - he must be a pretty lucky player - he didn't even die once! Would you say he's luckier than the average player?

Shit - is anyone here anyone here gonna agree with me that there's an element of player skill involved? 

Just because a monster is a luck-based opponent doesn't mean the outcome doesn't involve any skill.

Shit - is anyone here anyone here anyone here, errrr anyone at all going to point out the bleeding obvious that Kinn's non-argument is completely clouded by machismo and ego? 

I'm not budging on my position here. 

In case that sounded like I was taking the piss a bit....you're still lovely. Just wrong in this case. And maybe misinterpreting things a bit, I don't think anyone is saying there is no skill involved, nor that spawns are not a good monster / good fun entertainment / an essential part of any Quake map especially when placed in secrets. Just that there is some luck involved due to their random nature, and that in some - usually obvious circumstances - that can make a NON-100% skill-based encounter. 

erratic =! random

It's never going to fling itself away from you, for example.

How far it attempts to move with each jump is a fixed amount as well - if it bounces off a wall before it completes one is something that can be taken into account if you're precise enough.

Truly random would be it completely ignoring the player and just jumping about in any old direction and at random distances.

They have too much health and cause too much damage on bump in id1. A bomb enemy is supposed to take you by surprise when you forget it explodes. Not force you into destroying it because otherwise it will kill you extremely quickly with those 10 damage hits.

The health was just too high for my preference as well - bullet sponges are boring to fight IMO. I prefer more, and more dynamic fights. 

erratic

/ɪˈratɪk/

adjective: erratic

not even or regular in pattern or movement; unpredictable.

"her breathing was erratic"

synonyms:

unpredictable, inconsistent, changeable, variable, inconstant, uncertain, irregular



I'll take that instead of "truly random".