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Q1SP: Three Towers And A Sick Base!
Here is my new map! Its a medium to large sized Base themed map, wide open spaces, semi-non-linear, uses the Quoth pack. This map is not without a few bugs, however it took six and a half days to vis, and I'm not going to do it again!

easy on easy
176 monsters on normal
270-odd monsters on hard



I would stick to AguirRe's engine, availiable. If anyone manages to use another engine, I'd love to hear about it:

Last one to the top is a rotten egg!!
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is the only reason this map exceeds max_models is the number of func_walls created to speed up vis?

If so, it would be interesting to see a version with the func_walls merged into the world, and merely fast-vised.

Though I suspect this map also would have packet-overflow errors as well.

(NOTE: the fact that parts of func_walls dissapear in some levels is due to a maximum number of leafs that a bsp model can occupy or something. I have partly tracked this problem down, and I think it is related to the number of efrags, so if that limit were bumped, it might solve the problem.) 
wow ... when the world needs defending, can I call you? 
Sure, if I have some free time. 
I Liked The Momentary Look-around When The Rocket Arced In From Above 
but your mouse sensitivity makes my head throb 
I Know What You Mean 
I sometimes get a headache from viewing demos because it seems like they are moving around really fast. But when its me being the player, it seems like its never fast enough. I guess because I know what to expect when I'm behind the mouse, and its just the opposite when I'm watching someone else. 
Well Thanks Guys! 
I consider this to be a warm reception for this map! A bit of controversy never did anyone any harm (or did it?)

I have tried and tried to do it on NM setting, and I get so close (to cracking the second tower), I'm convinced it's possible. If you know where the Quad is, and you conserve it, and enough ammo for the top of the second tower then that would signify a turning point in the map, cause you can get the GL, PG, Megahealth and Pentegram before any more combat.

Quad is on roof above SK door.

I do think I could have balanced it a bit better on hard setting (maybe, SNG and more nails earlier would have done it), I do think if I knew a little more about compiling or had a little more experience I could have avoided dissappearing walls a bit (ijed, thanks for tips). And I wont ever forgive myself for the two lights next to the lift in the caged Feind room!

Im actually quite glad people say its too hard, it makes up for Deja Vu (supposedly 'a bit of a joke on Nightmare')!

I havent had a chance to watch Orl's demo yet, but somebody atleast managed it on Hard - well done Orl, you're not a rotten egg ;)

Nightmare anyone? (I havent given up yet myself)

P.S. - Lunaran

Thanks for the very good technical advice (again) genuinely appreciate such usefull advice and tips, sorry you got blew up a bit by the bomb! 
Thanx Orl! 
I have now watched your demo. You are a god of Quake! Everyone else just complains it's too hard, whereas you just stfu and kick some! I got quite a rush from watching it, I bet you did when playing it!

So of Orl can do it on Hard with only two out of the SEVEN secrets, surely its is possible on NIGHTMARE!!!

Lunaran - Difficulty settings - I think that although I could have made this a little smother on hard, to always base a levels difficulty by looking at your own performance on the hard setting could be a good idea if you are a brilliant player. Im not. Thats kinda what I did with Deja Vu, and ended up with people saying hard and nightmare were to easy. This stuff hasn't been posted for 48 hours and people have had it cracked! 
When you get the harsh looking around thing try chase_active, it can make it a bit easier to watch, but can sometimes have a looking outside the map effect if it has alot of thin walls. 
Everyone else just complains it's too hard, whereas you just stfu and kick some!

it's human nature to hear twenty people say the map is too hard, and one who says it's fine, and to decide that means the map is fine.

There's nothing wrong with hard and there's nothing wrong with 270 monsters in and of itself, but you're just too rough on the player. You're not trying to beat him, you're trying to make him have fun. I'm hearing a lot of people saying they didn't have any. 
Personally I don't think it's too hard, but just has too few resources. But the idea is to guide the player from start to finish, almost holding thier hand, (but so that they don't know it) and making them feel like they've achieved something and managed to beat you.

If you want to kill the player you can make a fullbright box and spawn thirty shamblers on map load, then release.

Ideally you want the player to drop to 10 health two or three times in the level and hover between 30 - 70 for the rest of it - those three times being the highpoint ambushes of the map that the player only just survives.

In order to make the map as acessable to the maximum number of player skill levels ideally each difficulty level should be tweaked to guide a player of that caliber through the map with around 1 death on easy for a bad player 1-2 or normal for an average player and 3-5 for a good player on hard / NM.

Mind, that's just my opinion, and something I didn't follow too closely whilst making my pack. 
I think thats a good way of looking at it, a good sort of model to aim for, I like the anallagy of holding the players hand without them thinking it. It can be hard to judge tho.

I didn't want to kill the player (well, maybe just a little bit ;), more just to make them feel really challenged and never stop shooting/moving, which to an extent I feel I achieved. I liked the idea of having a massive wide open space to run around in, and then being chucked into a small space with lots of enemies allreally close up, chaustrophobic quick draw action. It's a real challenge. The bigger the challenge, the bigger the sense of achievement!

If people wanna have fun then PLAY IT ON NORMAL

Its like those rubix cubes. I hate them because they're too hard.

so true^
games are all about fun. this map is not. its frustrating 
That Was Reffering To 
Lunaran "There's nothing wrong with hard and there's nothing wrong with 270 monsters in and of itself, but you're just too rough on the player. You're not trying to beat him, you're trying to make him have fun." 
Grit Your Teeth And Quicksave Often 
when you pass the SK door, things get better. 
.. if you play it in God mode... though

Well, it mainly depends of the player skill, and not the chosen skill for playing... and so it depends of of your own skill as well.. but as you know the map, you are not the best person to judge of the "real" difficulty level of the map...
Maybe more beta testers, and more beta test sessions would have helped...

OTOH, the map was quite enjoyable visually: all is not perfect, but there were few crappy areas... my personnal taste... Lightning could have been better as well...
Well, as you are "starting" in mapping, I hope to see more and better map from you: keep it up, you are on the right way ;) 
I tried it on Normal and had no fun. Didn't proceed further than the first tower from where I had no idea how to proceed (take the obvious shortcut or not) and died soon. But then I hate base maps anyways. And the map itself made me wanna cry because of the very flawed design and poly-waste. For example why did you make those spheres hollow?

This map clearly shows why you should do proper beta-testing. Also why you should map with Quake's limits in mind. And not to forget the many maps people simply put to their scrap folder as not worthy releasing. This sounds quite harsh and mean but I am under the impression that everyone wants to release high quality here.

The map has some nice brushwork though.

Shambler, I want you ranting! 
Well, Fine 
by all means keep mapping however you want, but if your only response to players not liking your map is "play better" then I shan't be playing the next one at all. 
Honestly, I think that different people will always have different opinions of maps, if I were to release this again I would put a SNG and some more nails earlier on in the level.

So the map is a little hard.

The next map I realease will hopefully improve on points outlined to me since I started reading this forum!

I knew somebody would comment on the hollow spheres. The spheres are hollow because I used groups of brushes already used (I rushed it!) 
make a smaller map next time so you learn the same amount with less effort expended. :) 
Just Watched ORL's Demo 
The only way he managed to survive was by knowing beforehand what was going to happen, most noticable in the tower fight/luring the monsters on the lifts. The towers seemed to be the main gripe in this map - the prime indication of excessive difficulty.
The green armor in front of the base (between tower 1 and 3) should have been a red one, plus a little more health on the outside.
Luckily, for some reason I managed not to get hit by the explosion.

I realized for the first time that the rockteer actually shoots homing missles on hard :o (tip: he does, however, not fire at all if the player stands too close to him).
The Defender's SSG attack needs a tad more delay between animation (sound) and actual shot. The way it is now, the player hardly gets a chance to take cover. This can quickly become annoying and add to possible frustration. 
Can You Do 
Only Ents build on fully compiled bsp? (i.e change point entities only, meaning a vis is not necessary?)

If so how?

I could doctor it a bit - more armour like you say - SNG on Hard much earlier, few more nails, y'know, fix it?

I am having interesting thoughts towards my next project. Playing Ankh's speed map was inspirational. I observed how he planned the map around gameplay whereas I planned this one with brushwork and appearance more in mind (although I tried to implement more fun gameplay elements also). 
qbsp -onlyents
make backups before you try. 
It Is Done... 
I have uploaded a 'fairer' version of the Sickbase to the Shub-Hub:

Could one of the awesome moderator-type-people *please* update the link at the top (just add '1' between 'sickbase' and '.zip'(obviously))

Comiserations to the god-like Orl (maybe Nightmare is now within reach)

We now have:

- yellow armour at the end of the first room
- megahealth instead of normal near second tower
- red armour instead of blue near main entrance
- SNG at foot of first tower
- more nails if you look for them
- one less gaunt on hard

unable to fix faulty func_walls or lights due to lack of patience and time for re-vis

Hehe. Sorry people. I'd LIKE to look at this as extended play-testing exercise, but its a bit late for that really (hangs head in shame) 
RickyT23 dont stress ;) for the time that you are mapping map is very good! ;) but next time make more betas!!! :) and make map more fast please! the most fun stuff in quake is the speed... and this map made me feal stop :\

hope to see more from you, i think you got talent ;) 
I don't think that replacing already released single player map with new version is a good idea. Please don't do it.
It was an interresting approach to make a map that even the author can't beat. I'm sure there is always a way to complete impossible maps in quake. Let's just wait for an NH from Sielwolf :) 
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