I read in an interview w/ someone at id that Quake 1 was who-could-make-the-best-DM-map, then strung along with an improvised story. 

I'm not sure you can claim a game that didn't even ship with DM maps was more DM focussed than D3.

(The Q2DMx maps came in a later patch) 

Both SP and DM. 

I never claimed that Q2 was more DM focused than SP focused. 

Regarding Q2, I agree with Shambler. The DM might have seemed slow to some, but I enjoyed it a lot. Haven't managed to get anyone to play Doom 3 MP at work, although I haven't actually asked since I've been playing coop Vietcong almost every day for the past four months or so :)

It's a real shame that there is no coop in Doom 3. It's id's first SP game without coop since Wolf3d, and that didn't even have networking. A lot of companies seem to overlook coop because they are intent on creating a scripted, linear and effects heavy SP experience that would normally break as soon as there are multiple players running around. It is actually quite surprising how many people want coop mode though. Halo is an example of a game where players tended to play it solo, then drag mates round to play coop, although I know a few people who have only bothered to finish it in coop.

Why the hell only the XBox version of Doom 3 will have coop, I don't know. Perhaps just due to time contraints and id just wanting to get the game done. 

I believe D3 didn't have coop because of the strain on the connections. DM is doable, but at small numbers. Having coop maps with demons and zombies as well as players AND physics would destroy anything but a fiber-optic T-75 line.

I could be mistaken, but that's what I believe the problem is. 

You're doing an awful lot of "As Shambler said" and "I agree with Shambler" recently.

Are you okay?? Maybe book a doctor's appointment or something... 

I'm just trying to build your confidence enough to let me suck your cock.

Well, I just happen to agree with you on a lot of stuff. I didn't enjoy Doom 3 as much as you seemed to though. I started hankering for the end about halfway through Delta labs. 

...to sucks his cock you better get your tongue out of his ass. As you surely cannot do both at the same time. 

Is really weird, and decidedly suboptimal. How and why exactly, I don't know yet. The SDK should shed some light on things. 

I've just played the first two levels and I am very very impressed. I'm running high detail 1024x768 with 2x AA on my Radeon 9800 PRO w/ latest drivers and it has played very smoothly.

Things that stand out:

I didn't think that the textures would create the illusion of depth and geometry so well -- they do.

Models are top notch -- I was very impressed with the expressions and facial movements.

Great sound FX/sdtrk so far. I was impressed with the game's ability to sound futuristic, but not totally foreign.

Great fights so far, but I was a little annoyed when I got gang raped by two zombies on either side of a doorway, causing me to lose 70 health. I didn't have any visual or sonic clues that he was there until it was too late. Threw me off a bit.

Excellent sense of place. We all know the outpost base has been done to death, but I still found it to be incredibly immersive. The one thing that bothered me was the Half Life style health refuelers on the wall. They work, look, and sound exactly the same. Bleh.

Lighting is very convincing in action, and on the architecture, but sometimes not so much when you're talking to another Marine or personnel person. The lighting felt a bit off during these times.

I love love love the textures. They are outstanding in every respect. I was especially impressed by the texturing in the buffer areas between the Mars terrain about 20 minutes into it. Great.

*Spolier* Finally, when you first get to the guy you are supposed to bring back to the Marine base, and all Hell (literally) breaks loose, the fear is very palpable. I can't wait to play more. 

zwiffle, at what point did I say you were claiming that that Q2 was more DM focused than SP focused

I was merely responding to;

Q2 was intended for Single Player, but not nearly as much as Doom3 was.

In Q2, I'd guesstimate about 65-70% was made for SP, possibly less.


Which is blatandly wrong since D3 ships with DM maps, Q2 didn't. 

Why the hell only the XBox version of Doom 3 will have coop, I don't know

It's because the XBox port is being done by a different company, who decided they wanted to add co-op.


And on a slightly related note, I've only ever played Halo SP in co-op, it's not that great on your own, but as with any game, it's so much more fun playing with a friend. And the joy of console co-op is that all you need is another controller, not another PC. 

Which is blatandly wrong since D3 ships with DM maps, Q2 didn't.

Q2 shipped with the capability to run >4 player servers over the internet (and all the SP maps had DM layouts, a few of which were actually playable). If id had any interest in D3 having serious multiplayer, they'd have rewritten the netcode.

I'll second that Halo co-op motion. Especially on Legendary; the AI makes for some damn good fights (there was an article about it on Gamasutra awhile back, iirc). 

You know, I hear lots of people complaining about 'the netcode' but never mention any specifics on how they'd improve it, or any such reasons why it's the netcode itself is why the game can be laggy. Knowing Carmack, he optimizes code like a fiend, and IMO, I'd just say he's created an engine that was a bit too far ahead of it's time to handle good DM. All that 'stuff' that makes D3 is also what slows it. Dynamic lights, per pixel hit detection, ragdolls, weapon fire traced individually. The game was designed for singleplayer in mind, despite the fact there is deathmatch and people just want to beat it to death without any thought to the reason why or how. Now fuck off and go map everyone. 

#52 posted by nonentity [80.177.201.18] on 2004/09/14 10:05:37
I'm not sure you can claim a game that didn't even ship with DM maps was more DM focussed than D3.

#54 posted by Zwiffle [69.210.84.168] on 2004/09/14 16:08:41
I never claimed that Q2 was more DM focused than SP focused.

#62 posted by nonentity [217.41.19.241] on 2004/09/21 07:01:09
zwiffle, at what point did I say you were claiming that that Q2 was more DM focused than SP focused 

Yeah, that's me saying that D3 was more DM focused than Q2. Not that Q2 was more DM focused than SP focused. 

Ahh, I see your point. My mistake. But, regardless, I still think Q2 was more DM focused than D3 ever was, and ultimately I still think that Doom3 maps should be focused for SP. 

I miss actually having a message and a triumphant little sound play when you find a secret.

There was a really cool one in the comm facility, right after Mars City.

SPOILER

In the dark there's a cable to cross a pit (the one with the crane the guy doesn't want you to touch), and at the end a door with a touchscreen that says "storage unlocked via marine security station." When you get into that station later, sort of tucked away at the bottom of the guy's screen (away from the bigger and more obvious buttons) is a little extra window for unlocking other doors, including this room and the other equipment case. Rock.

/SPOILER

Makes me wonder what other kinds of cool secretness can be had by us designers. They took away our cool bleeding secret doors/shootable light fixtures it seems though. :( 

It's all spoiler.

Consider yourself warned.

Under one of the desks around delta-something-ish there's a security button. Hitting it opens a secret panel behind you full of goodies. I thought it was a nice touch because it meshed in well with the theme. All too often secrets don't make sense in their environment. 

There's only about 85,000 "secrets" like that in the game... 

I miss actually having a message and a triumphant little sound play when you find a secret.

yeah Lun 

I unpacked the demo's .PK4 and modified the weapon HUD's and flashlight beams to red, and put it all back in (all using WinZip which I've read is legit to do).. the 461 MB original pak now became 520 MB and upon launch it says corrupt pak. 

don't do that.

Just put the modified files in the right folders in /base/ and they'll override stuff in the pak. 

Was it a light snack or an all-you-can-eat? Did it feel like value for the money or are you hoping for enough user maps to fill those hungry spaces? The original DooM felt substantial back when I played.