I always figured the reason to do a 16-bit mdl format is so you can make monsters that would otherwise look like total trash in mdl. The thought of having a large chunk (most?) of your audience just seeing the trash version anyway because of backwards compat will probably make you design the model in a conservative way to minimise this, which itself weakens the reason for doing 16-bit in the first place, so eh I ‘unno. 

It seems elegant despite my above misgivings 

wouldn't it be simple to code into the engine a search for a md3(or md2) version of the same model name? So much like the high def textures for those who want to use them.

It would mean that so long as the person modelling had released a lower poly version of the mdl too it would be available and wouldn't break vanilla compatibility. 

you could fall back to an existing entity in the pak. If I make a new monster md3 but the engine doesn't support it, fallback to an Ogre. Have that fallback mdl definable by the mapper. 

^^^^ that's stupid 

I still don't see how it would be possible to do the amazing effects (outside of full fledged particles a'la Maya or Blender) that Preach manages to pull off with the mdl format. I'm still at a loss on how to make polygons dissappear into themselves. 

The trick is that you take each particle, and on the frames where you want it to be invisible you apply a scaling transformation with scale factor 0 (typing the value numerically is the surest way to do it). There are variations on this, like on some models I only apply the transformation on one axis, so that the particle collapses into a line rather than a point. But it's all about scaling - it's the easiest way to ensure that all the vertices align so the polygon disappears. 

and this is coming from someone who usually doesn't bother playing maps in bsp2 format

This is heartbreaking. 

Is there anything that would bring cause for a bsp3? 

I have now made an arc_ogre, but I am faced with the problem that my splines are converted into four on each clip node when converted. The result is that a q1 model with relative weight triangles is converted to two triangles in each square. I can only save them in squares, which are converted to two triangles.
If I import this to qmle, the ratio of internal triangles has almost doubled.

Would this make much difference to a model with only half of verts / tris? As long as it stays below 1000tris / 2000verts, it should make little difference. 

Sepulcher allegedly came close to hitting the upper limits, and also it did something that required a change in Quakespasm, but I don't remember what.

The 3DRealms game has some gigantic maps, but IIRC they don't use their own map format.

I suspect Bal will be the first one to break bsp2 ;-) but at that point, adopting q3bsp would probably happen first. 

Although strictly speaking some engines (e.g. unmodified GLQuake) do have a limit of 1000 triangles, the original software engines allowed 2000 triangles, and pretty much every custom engine at least restored the limit to that level. So you're probably OK to exceed 1000 if you need to. 

In my case it is not the tri limit, but the question if I should simplify a working model with relative high counts into one with less for benifit of better performance.
It's quiet a lot of work doing this in Qmle. 

Pictures, screen captures, screenshots, views of work in progress, ... come on, make us get an hard on, Quake style! 

Trying to adjust maps by the hand of the first screenshots, with no dynamic light.
Sorry for the low resolution, old quake school.

when
I
only
had
low
resolution
to
see
my
quake 

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/mark_v_0000.png 

Hi everyone!

I've over worked my map and think its ready for release.
Hope that some of you can take a look on it and tell me if it works.

http://www.quaketastic.com/index.php?dir=files/tod/

gsh_tod.zip

best wishes
Gunny 

Below you can find my demo with comments:

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/tod/gsh_tod_esrael.zip

Having more guidance in the map was a welcome addition in this version. I also liked the little story texts. :)

I still think the map was a bit on the easy side. Especially the temple area with the yellow and red armors being so easily available, not to mention giving the player the quad damage. Maybe some of the stuff could be hidden behind secrets?

I wasn't able to exit the map this time around. I opened the map file in Trenchbroom, and it looks like the reason is because you haven't specified the next map for the changelevel trigger. You have to specify a map, or else the change level trigger won't work. (Didn't know that myself, actually. Well, the more I know, I guess.)

While having the map open in Trenchbroom I also noticed that you had used the wrong texture in the clip brushes that were supposed to prevent the player from jumping over the fence. You should use the "clip" texture, not the "trigger" texture. 

Thanks again! :)

Ahh yes I forgot the armor.
Will It change something if I change the Level to normal or hard?
The exit thing is a little bit frightening cause I entert the start map for exit and never changed it? Yes it disapeared Hmmm. I changed that again.
Do you think after that last changes this is a map for release? 

I got an idea for a map last week, and probably 50+ hours later have a working beta of it. Wanted to pass this around for testing, for anyone who is interested.

I have played it with FrikBots, but not against humans yet. Even if DM isn't your thing, I'm open to feedback on the map build itself.

IMAGE
https://imgur.com/3bqiCZm

TEST RUN VIDEO:
https://youtu.be/4SdMJEAdgqE?t=90

DOWNLOAD LINK
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/multiplayer/maps/rhoqtdm2_beta.2018.11.30.zip 

Somewhat cheery style, if one can say that. Farily brightly lit (I usually say the opposite), though of course you don't want a DM map to be too dark, either.

There's something about the layout.. so many corridors, and the upper/outside part seems to be a little bit secluded from the normal flow? Possibly a misconception on my part as I didn't actually play it properly.

The light beam effect is cool, but I wouldn't use an engine-specific effect in a DM map, because it looks bad on older/non-QS/DM-focused ports: pic

The teleporter triggers should be a few units in front of the entire structure imo, to avoid getting stuck on the sides and dropping into the lava by accident.

Mandatory suggestion: consider putting in some single player stuff once the DM portion is finished and finetuned! ;) 

The level seems to be SSG-focused by the looks of it. Very little in terms of nailgun ammo - they run out so quickly in a fight. I would suggest adding a little more, especially near the nailguns, and turn every small nail box into a big one. Testing with bots is tricky, because they are so dumb that low-tier weapons appear viable where in a real DM they are usually not (at least against players with RL/LG).

GL is very close to the RL, so the explosive-type of weapons are centered on the upper part of the map. Maybe put the GL somewhere in the lower part, or add a second one down there? In this sense, however, I have to quality my "upper part somewhat secluded" statement, since this way it's a bit of a king-of-the-hill setup where the teams can try to conquer/dominate the RL area. Especially with the RA being so close to the RL. I usually try to spread out the powerful items to encourage movement.

No LG at all?

A little pet peeve if you allow: please rotate the teleporter destination platforms so the runes are aligned to the direction the player appears on the platform. The arcane magic requires it! 

@negke - the outdoor section did get a little out of hand during the build. Bigger than planned. During my tests (not that bots are a great test), the RL was sort of a fetch quest, get it and head back into the interior of the map. I might have to just chalk that one up to lesson learned, regarding layouts. It sort of violates some guidelines I'm trying develop for DM maps, too. So I should probably just be intentional about sticking to my principles, keeping things more tightly connected, and not have sprawling sections away from the rest of the space.

Good notes about not being port-specific with feature use. I can remove the beam of light for the final release. One other thing I learned with my last map is that DM servers which transfer maps automatically don't transfer the .lit file, which I forgot to test this time around. Is there a command to shut off colored lighting in QS so I can toggle that?

Re: Weapons... Will definitely up the ammo for nailguns. I'm sure I can figure out an alternate location for the Grenade Launcher to spread out the explosion stuff. The absence of the LG is a selfish point, but intentional. I play DM with my kid, and so far the LG seems to be a destabilizing element when we play, leading to frustration. But I can put one in the public release, I suppose. Suggestions on location for that?

Re: Arcane Magic... had I but known! Definitely will fix the runes. To be clear... does the proper alignment mean the bottom of the texture (as it appears in the texture window in editor) should be in front of the player as they appear, or should it be the top of the texture? 

So... I don't have a lot of experience with SP yet. So I have questions.

Do you think this map would be very interesting for a single player setup?

It is preferred these days to make a map that does both, or it is acceptable to rip out all the entities and do a separate release for an SP version?

Is this map big enough to contain a satisfying single player experience? Seems small. Do I extend it with changing elements within the same space or building out new areas? What are your recommendations?