in general try not to build anything to the exact maximum, if you want the player to succeed. Because physics is framerate dependent, some players might not be able to make a jump that is theoretically possible.

Also geometry built near the threshold between "can" and "can't" is ambiguous to the player and makes the environment harder to read. For example you want gaps that are obviously "jumpable" or "unjumpable" when a player looks at them. (exception may be in DM maps where expert players are supposed to be challenged to learn the quirks of the map.)

For example, 16 units is a good max step height. 32 is a good minimum non-step height. 40 units is a good max jumpable height, 48 is a good minimum for un-jumpable height. 

MadFox and Negke: thanks for the info, it's going to be very useful.

Gb: at the situation i am right now. i have to penalize the skill, as i want to put something very important on the other side. The problem is that if i penalize skill, i have to make that it SEEMS obvious that it isn't possible to go to the other way. I'll probably mix more height and width, as i cannot make the chasm too big (244 is a lot for that part (right now it has 160) and i do need to take into account strafe jumping too), but i still cannot forget about the options of fences, something hanging on the middle of the chasm or adding gravity. I'll test all of them and decide later.

Metlslime: thx for the advices, they are usually obvious, but that's something that can tend to be forgotten.



I'll explain my idea: What i want to do is put a very important key-part of the map on the other side, so it can be seen easily and makes the player want to get there but hiding the path a lot so it is rewarding and makes the player realize how important is or how good the reward is, so i was thinking of ways to prevent the player to get to it by shortcuts, aside from those that we talked before; even ways of countering cheat codes.
The only one that i thought till now that not involve coding or hacking and can be valid even for countering ''noclip'' is killtargeting the object with a box surrounding it made of a trigger_once with a message. This box is killtargeted by another trigger put blocking the way i want the player to follow. Of course i plan to put the box so that only can be touched if the player cheat, or maybe putting also some kind of force field around the box so it is more obvious that it cannont be reached, but it seeems kind of cheap and it won't stop cheaters of trying to get there. I even though of using the box to target all the lights, as the most effective way to prevent people to noclip through doors and secrets triggered by that key-part, even if there is a cvar that adds lighting, only a few ones would know of it, so it will block most cheaters.

I'm conscious to the fact that being so zealous against cheaters can give me problems but i think that if done well it can add a lot to the map. 

... that if this part is giving me so much problems maybe i should forget about it entirely if i don't get a decent way to solve it quickly, as it can lead to have a dead weight in the map.

I'll go ask the pillow too. Good night. 

If you put up a barrier, make it appear logical. If it's a tech style map, yeah, a forcefield might work. A door stuck halfway also works. Anything that's in the theme of the map. 

Why worry about them? I mean the only person that they are cheating is themselves out of playing a game the way it was intended to be played and missing out on the experience. 

Thanks for the right values.
I just quoted Virtus DeathMatchMaker's manual,
but glad to see opposite. 

As Mandel said, it depends on the max speed a player can get when bunny hopping; because the speed increase with each hop.

As Mandel said, the max speed (in most clients) is 2000.

The default speed (running) is 320; and, as negke said, the distance of a jump (default) is 244.

320/244 = 1.3114
2000/1.3114 = 1525

So, the max distance a player can bunny hop is 1525 units.

The max distance a player can bunny hop (on his first hop), is 320; but it's difficult (you need a nice starting approach/curve/turn) to do.

But, like gb said, put a barrier there (so that it's obvious) that a player shouldn't even bother/attempt a jump (in the first place). 

thats quite a lot. 

a brush can have?
255? 

on the opposite side of the ravine place a vertical wall with a skip texture on it. players trying to jump over will fall down. 

You have a point there, but i have my own reasons too:

1) I want that there is as much people as possible that enjoy the map like it is. Someone that cheats won't enjoy the map, the same happens with those that play a map in easy, they get a half-assed experience on the first try, and that is the most important one, as you won't get the same feeling twice in most parts.
That is the reason too as to why i always play the first time in nightmare, as the map won't feel as hard and intense on the second time and subsequent ones, and i will miss that if i don't do it that way. The problem is that i will miss the first experience in normal and that normal won't feel the same after completing the level in nightmare, but i can live with that.

2) People that cheat can activate triggers without noticing, and get as a a result a weird or unplayable map, and then think that it is the company or the mapper/modder fault. I don't feel responsible for them and don't care about them, but they should be taken into account too, as that people makes comments too, and those comments can make that some people that would enjoy the game/map/mod won't play it. This applies to 1) too, as if they cheat they won't get the same feeling (you don't get the acomplisment feeling when you see a secret, it isn't the same feeling if you see a room from one point than from other, ...).

3) I just pity those cheaters, as they are missing the good and bad points on maps, because the don't see that they are destroying their own fun times by taking unfair shortcuts. Same with people that exploits big bugs to defeat bosses. Yes, I like to get in the way of the problems of others if this makes that i can correct things that are blatantly bad for them, even if this can get me into problems. On the other way, I even feel bad and void when i use the architecture and the AI in Quake as a way to defeat the monsters, and don't want for more people to get accostumed to this as it seems that is happening more and more as the time passes.

4) That way of restricting players can be good. As an example, i recently played ''An evil new'' by Tronyn and Murderous Martin, that have ways to prevent the player from using cheat codes, and thought that it was a good experience, even if it was hard and at some times i wished for those cheat codes, the impossibility of having them made me put more effort on it and the feeling of acomplisment was far greater than expected and I enjoyed it and completed all of them. 

I haven't thought about that till now, but now that i have the distance for a normal jump i can calculate the distance of a strafe jumping by using the difference in their speeds when walking. I suppose the height will be the same. It won't be accurate but will get me a general idea of it, and that way i have that information there for subsequent maps.

Enliten:That idea ..., there is better ones, like the others that were posted before. But thanks for the intention. 

Cocerello: "I haven't thought about that till now, but now that i have the distance for a normal jump i can calculate the distance of a strafe jumping by using the difference in their speeds when walking."

...

You're welcome. 

Cheaters cheat, it's up to them. They won't have much fun and aren't worth catering to. All the time that you spend combating this problem is time that could be spent on improving the map in other ways.

It has a parallel with the DRM argument - people who pirate your stuff wouldn't have bought it anyway.

Someone who cheats through your level won't play it properly because you block their cheating.

I used to try and block speed running, before I realized that I was hurting the maps.

Frustrating the player on purpose, no matter how noble the goal, is a bad idea.

To solve your problem I'd propose something cool and taunting rather than a physical block. Have the player ride through the area in a func_train cage beforehand or have votes spam magic at them from it from miles away.

These tactics will annoy the player but not frustrate them, and anyone that cheats their way over the gap is gonna know they missed out on something important. 

The more faces a brush has the less likely the map is to compile. Not for the brush itself but how it interacts with all the other brushes in the map.

The clipper is your friend! 

Quake players get to decide how to play the map.

Getting too obviously in the way of this is annoying for everyone involved. So just make the gap sufficiently wide that its obvious that you're not supposed to try to jump across. Then, if a player wants to spend 40 minutes lining up the perfect bunny sequence to jump across, then (a) he/she probably knows that they are not playing the map the way the mapper intended and (b) who are you to say this is less of an effort/reward ratio than the long route you had in mind? Dismissing an effort like this as "cheating" is almost insulting, imho. Ages ago distrans sent a nice mail to SDA about this sort of thing, search for "distrans" on http://speeddemosarchive.com/quake/oldnews/03_jun20-sep05.html to read it.

OTOH, someone who types god, impulse 9 into the console and rjs across... well, screw em. That really is just cheating. 

Achievements.... I remember when I used to play wow, the most fun thing I ever did in that game was explore off-limits areas, or take monsters to where they weren't supposed to be to create havoc.

If somebody tells me I can't or shouldn't do something, it makes me want to do it more. You could even consider rewarding them for their out of order completion or challenging them spawn mobs that wouldn't be there had they collected a key or rune.... 

Mwh, enliten: You probably missunderstood my words, i consider cheating using the cheat codes, i do not consider cheating speedruns, strafe-jumping and bunny-hopping, as those involve tons of skills to pull them.
I still think that i have to prevent that the player reaches there, as that shortcut probably will avoid a big part of the map (i wouldn't mind if the shorcut wasn't so big). I won't prevent players to get there if they pull a good bunny-hopping or other hard to pull trick, but i will make it obvious that it cannot be reached with a normal jump or a strafe jump, if i finally put the chasm.

Ijed:

Have the player ride through the area in a func_train cage beforehand

I don't understand what you can achieve with this one. To have the player measure the place so he will know that he can't jump? Or to show him what he cannot reach?

or have votes spam magic at them from it from miles away.

I don't understand this one at all, all i get in my mind when i read it sounds so crazy. Could you explain it? 

"Overthinking" hits the nail on the head I think. 

I agree with mwh.

Map is a better map when it offers things that allow for increased replayability (aka replay value).

Don't worry if a player skips a big part of the map, because the player won't. The player will play the long route first time, then try the difficult shortcut in the future. 

I agree with what you say, ALL of it, as it is compatible with what i said. 

The two examples I mention are ways of making sure the player knows the area is important, but they're more complex than just leaving a hole.

Cage: This is done in one of the episode 2 levels where the cage goes through water. Basically drop the player into a cage (so they can see out) then move it through the area you want them to see. This means they look at it but can't interact with anything directly.

Vores: Players love monsters. They ignore everything else in favour of monsters, so if you put monsters somewhere then players will head directly for them despite everything else.

For example, if you've got a fork in the path and want player to take the correct route, put a monster in it.

If you put some vores (long ranged attackers) on the other side of your pit then players will know for certain that what's on the other side is important, even though they can't get there yet. They also have to kill the vores, which adds some nice dodge game play to your level. 

"You're not supposed to be here"

was a good command in one of the mission packs after rocketjumping.
So the developpers had foreseen these attempts. 

Terra - if you no-clip around a lot you get told off and made fun of. 

I've seen playtesters do all kinds of shit I'd never expect, tbh. It's true that they will go kill a monster if it's a threat to them, but they might as well go back and happily continue doing what they were doing before the monster came along - jumping on top of something, looking for loot, or whatever.

I'm always slightly hesitant when it comes to guiding players like that. Ideally, if you have a fork in the road, both forks should lead to something that makes sense even if the player takes the "wrong" one.

Like in DOOM.