Alright, Ricky. Added to quakewiki.

hakkarin,
This page: http://spawnhost.wordpress.com/tutorials/quake-1-radiant-tutorial/ talks about Radiant, and mentions Quoth 

What is the maximum distance that can be jumped by strafe jumping and bunny-hopping? I need to know that distance for a map and i don't want to use fences or clip brushes and i want to make the chasm as smaller as possible.

Trying it by myself is no valid option as i can't get the hang of it.

As far as i know, with normal jumping the player can get across a chasm of about 180-200 units. 

I don't know that there is a limit, other than a product of the maximal speed (2000?) and the air time of a regular jump, really.

if there are no slopes, grenades, rockets, or monsters, then you can protect against shortcuts by making the opposing edge slightly higher than standard jump height, so that it can't be jumped regardless of speed. 

Not sure how strafe jumping and bunnyhopping fits in,
but regular mapping subscribes:

Max distance player can jump foreward => 225
Max distance player can jump upwards => 42.5
Max distance player can fall not injured=> 275
Min gap in floor before fall through => 35
Max step player walks before jumping => 17
 

With a rocket-boosted bunny hop sequence or something like that, a player can reach *insane* speeds which translates to insane jumps. I don't think there is any protection against that sort of thing really, apart from something like a midair teleporter or trigger_push, which is a bit cheesy.

(With the grappling hook in RMQ, just as anecdotal evidence, it was possible to reach horizontal speeds upwards of 1000 units per second - I've seen speedrunners go above 600 by other methods.)

Skill should be rewarded. But for 99% of players, 300 units or so should be uncrossable if there is no boost possibility nearby (including slopes and any source of damage) and they have no explosives.

I think. ^^

The slime pool in e1m1 is rather uncrossable (for mere mortals that is) without extending the bridge, so take that as a rule. 

The above goes for *Netquake* servers. Some popular engines are not quite Netquake. 

Those values are all wrong. 

what are actually the right values? 

Max distance player can jump foreward = 244
Max distance player can jump upwards = 43
Max distance player can fall not injured = 256
Min gap in floor before fall through = 33
Max step player walks before jumping = 18 

And yes, those are for Netquake, id1, vanilla, etc.

Also note that, I believe, there's a slight difference between old SW Quake and source ports concerning the out-of-water height (29). 

yeah, the out-of-water height is a bit sensitive. Not everyone can get out of water when the ledge is 32 units high! Make it 16 to be safe. 

thanks negke! 

in general try not to build anything to the exact maximum, if you want the player to succeed. Because physics is framerate dependent, some players might not be able to make a jump that is theoretically possible.

Also geometry built near the threshold between "can" and "can't" is ambiguous to the player and makes the environment harder to read. For example you want gaps that are obviously "jumpable" or "unjumpable" when a player looks at them. (exception may be in DM maps where expert players are supposed to be challenged to learn the quirks of the map.)

For example, 16 units is a good max step height. 32 is a good minimum non-step height. 40 units is a good max jumpable height, 48 is a good minimum for un-jumpable height. 

MadFox and Negke: thanks for the info, it's going to be very useful.

Gb: at the situation i am right now. i have to penalize the skill, as i want to put something very important on the other side. The problem is that if i penalize skill, i have to make that it SEEMS obvious that it isn't possible to go to the other way. I'll probably mix more height and width, as i cannot make the chasm too big (244 is a lot for that part (right now it has 160) and i do need to take into account strafe jumping too), but i still cannot forget about the options of fences, something hanging on the middle of the chasm or adding gravity. I'll test all of them and decide later.

Metlslime: thx for the advices, they are usually obvious, but that's something that can tend to be forgotten.



I'll explain my idea: What i want to do is put a very important key-part of the map on the other side, so it can be seen easily and makes the player want to get there but hiding the path a lot so it is rewarding and makes the player realize how important is or how good the reward is, so i was thinking of ways to prevent the player to get to it by shortcuts, aside from those that we talked before; even ways of countering cheat codes.
The only one that i thought till now that not involve coding or hacking and can be valid even for countering ''noclip'' is killtargeting the object with a box surrounding it made of a trigger_once with a message. This box is killtargeted by another trigger put blocking the way i want the player to follow. Of course i plan to put the box so that only can be touched if the player cheat, or maybe putting also some kind of force field around the box so it is more obvious that it cannont be reached, but it seeems kind of cheap and it won't stop cheaters of trying to get there. I even though of using the box to target all the lights, as the most effective way to prevent people to noclip through doors and secrets triggered by that key-part, even if there is a cvar that adds lighting, only a few ones would know of it, so it will block most cheaters.

I'm conscious to the fact that being so zealous against cheaters can give me problems but i think that if done well it can add a lot to the map. 

... that if this part is giving me so much problems maybe i should forget about it entirely if i don't get a decent way to solve it quickly, as it can lead to have a dead weight in the map.

I'll go ask the pillow too. Good night. 

If you put up a barrier, make it appear logical. If it's a tech style map, yeah, a forcefield might work. A door stuck halfway also works. Anything that's in the theme of the map. 

Why worry about them? I mean the only person that they are cheating is themselves out of playing a game the way it was intended to be played and missing out on the experience. 

Thanks for the right values.
I just quoted Virtus DeathMatchMaker's manual,
but glad to see opposite. 

As Mandel said, it depends on the max speed a player can get when bunny hopping; because the speed increase with each hop.

As Mandel said, the max speed (in most clients) is 2000.

The default speed (running) is 320; and, as negke said, the distance of a jump (default) is 244.

320/244 = 1.3114
2000/1.3114 = 1525

So, the max distance a player can bunny hop is 1525 units.

The max distance a player can bunny hop (on his first hop), is 320; but it's difficult (you need a nice starting approach/curve/turn) to do.

But, like gb said, put a barrier there (so that it's obvious) that a player shouldn't even bother/attempt a jump (in the first place). 

thats quite a lot. 

a brush can have?
255? 

on the opposite side of the ravine place a vertical wall with a skip texture on it. players trying to jump over will fall down. 

You have a point there, but i have my own reasons too:

1) I want that there is as much people as possible that enjoy the map like it is. Someone that cheats won't enjoy the map, the same happens with those that play a map in easy, they get a half-assed experience on the first try, and that is the most important one, as you won't get the same feeling twice in most parts.
That is the reason too as to why i always play the first time in nightmare, as the map won't feel as hard and intense on the second time and subsequent ones, and i will miss that if i don't do it that way. The problem is that i will miss the first experience in normal and that normal won't feel the same after completing the level in nightmare, but i can live with that.

2) People that cheat can activate triggers without noticing, and get as a a result a weird or unplayable map, and then think that it is the company or the mapper/modder fault. I don't feel responsible for them and don't care about them, but they should be taken into account too, as that people makes comments too, and those comments can make that some people that would enjoy the game/map/mod won't play it. This applies to 1) too, as if they cheat they won't get the same feeling (you don't get the acomplisment feeling when you see a secret, it isn't the same feeling if you see a room from one point than from other, ...).

3) I just pity those cheaters, as they are missing the good and bad points on maps, because the don't see that they are destroying their own fun times by taking unfair shortcuts. Same with people that exploits big bugs to defeat bosses. Yes, I like to get in the way of the problems of others if this makes that i can correct things that are blatantly bad for them, even if this can get me into problems. On the other way, I even feel bad and void when i use the architecture and the AI in Quake as a way to defeat the monsters, and don't want for more people to get accostumed to this as it seems that is happening more and more as the time passes.

4) That way of restricting players can be good. As an example, i recently played ''An evil new'' by Tronyn and Murderous Martin, that have ways to prevent the player from using cheat codes, and thought that it was a good experience, even if it was hard and at some times i wished for those cheat codes, the impossibility of having them made me put more effort on it and the feeling of acomplisment was far greater than expected and I enjoyed it and completed all of them. 

I haven't thought about that till now, but now that i have the distance for a normal jump i can calculate the distance of a strafe jumping by using the difference in their speeds when walking. I suppose the height will be the same. It won't be accurate but will get me a general idea of it, and that way i have that information there for subsequent maps.

Enliten:That idea ..., there is better ones, like the others that were posted before. But thanks for the intention. 

Cocerello: "I haven't thought about that till now, but now that i have the distance for a normal jump i can calculate the distance of a strafe jumping by using the difference in their speeds when walking."

...

You're welcome.