[11:48 PM] Shambler: besides, TB really needs support for non-convex brushes 

Can confirm this is a very cool map, with a really nice visual theme, and nice elegant architectural motifs. Gameplay is balanced - was very tight on ammo on a couple of occasions, but squeaked through with some light cheesing as opportunities arose. 

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/otp_shamsp5.zip

Very cool stuff, an interesting reinterpretation of an already heavily trodden map. Felt like a sequel to the dm2 remix map, and not just because this is another DMSP convert - there's certain quirks shared by both maps that give the whole affair a certain sense of continuity.

I guess what I'm saying is that our beloved Shambler has developed his own mapping style??? If I didn't know this was a Shambler map before playing, I'd have guessed it about thirty seconds in.

The progression made sense, even if the whole elevator thing was maybe more complicated than needed (instead of lots of buttons and centerprints, why not just keep them up and bring them down later?).
I got a good kick out of trying to make the YA jump and failing, since that's what I always do in the source map.

Only found 3/8 secrets in the demo, more after post-coital hunting. Not entirely convinced if the mechanic employed is better than what Quake usually does - I pretty much found one of the secrets by accidentally hugging the right wall at the right time, but thumbs up for consistency and proper use of AD features.

Very enjoyable gameplay-wise, a marked improvement over your other maps - this one had a proper flow and fewer spawn-ins, and the actual spawn-ins still felt organic, as in their appearance actually made sense in that moment, and didn't feel like the mapper pretending to be a crafty Dungeon Master. Very good gamefeel in general.

I rate this quite highly, gotta replay it in Qrack with the Qoetia mod though before I can make a proper judgement... 

The elevators....I wanted them to come down as they did, and there was some complexity required to get them working after that initially.

I tried to make it in quite a different style to my previous maps ;) 

I'm not as wordy as otp. Here's a demo file instead to show off my rusty-ass aim.

Elevators did not work as I expected. Fell into a secret and thought the buttons at the end (SPOILERS) were a secret instead of the exit because I wasn't keeping track of kill count. So missed 80% of the secrets as usual. Not enough penises compared to the last Shambler map I played. Enjoyed it otherwise. 

OTP, good fun, nice to see you made use of the little blocks to get back from the YA. Even nicer to see you getting caught in the lightning traps a few times after telling me to put traps in the map ;)

Spud, also good fun, playing quite flamboyantly and it worked well. The ending area and exit mechanism should be somewhat recognisable ;)

The lifts are superfluous yes, but there had to be the one by the DBS for obvious reasons, and also there had to be some inter-floor connection in the teleporter pillar room for the same reasons, and another lift rather than stairs seemed to fit. Then I liked the gameplay mechanism of them dropping down and it snowballed from there. Sometimes players even use them to get back up after falling off the YA.... 

life is so busy and stressful right now so I really appreciate the smaller maps.
played on skill 1, stumbled into 4 secrets. The relatively laid back game play was perfect and this really hit the spot.
Recorded a demo I'll probably never get around to posting.
Thanks for continuing to make these types of maps. 

Must Play 

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/ad_shamsp5_4.jpg 

Fun map. I like when monster count is kept under 80. Manageable on skill 2, had a nice flow.
Here is a demo:
http://www.quaketastic.com/files/demos/shamsp5_Ankh.zip 

Drew and Ankh, thank you guys :). Glad the smaller size is appreciated, that was part of the plan, make something more digestible that can be played for a quick burst of quake or hopefully be savoured longer if players feel like it. I too sometimes find large maps a bit off-putting. 

 

http://www.quaketastic.com/files/ad_shamsp5_drew.zip 

I liked it. Nice neat style, cool little vistas. Maybe could of done with some contrast to cut through some parts. Little bit flat visually. 

Great small little base map. I love how interconnected the layout was; as it opens up it gives room for lots of different approaches to combat. The final area could have been a bit more open and chaotic to my taste, but I liked the nod to whatever E2 map with the three switches. Keep shamblin. 

As usual with Shambler's maps I can't for the life of me find any secrets. Finished with a pitiful 1/8 :D

I liked how space was well utilized and visuals were pretty unique.

http://mgrankin.xyz/quake/shamb.7z 

WW - thanks. Contrast could have been an option but conversely I wanted to strongly stick to a theme. I did try to get enough details in each area to be interesting, though.

Lpowell - thanks. The layout may have been, errr, entirely borrowed from elsewhere ;). The final area was a little bit of an afterthought admittedly, I could have added more complexity there.

Flint - thanks. The secrets are all marked in similar ways and are spread semi-equally throughout the map. I did try to get the balance of making them all marked (usually in two ways) but also require some hunting. Sleepy managed to get 7/8 which is a good effort. Glad you liked it :) 

After playing it, the question of why the DLC exists led to this exchange between me and shums

Shambler Yesterday at 9:42 PM
although i hope we can avoid questions as trite as "why"

gnsnorch grungeongrurche Yesterday at 9:43 PM
it transcends "why" to be honest. It exists, the "why" is not particularly important. The pressing issue is "what do we do with it now that it exists". that overwhelms "why" to the point that "why" has negligable importance
e.g. nuclear weapons
we don't spend much time thinking about why they exist, all of our thought is spent thinking about how the fuck to stop ourselves blowing the world up
 

I think we've just entered a new era of mapping for Quake. 

I remember this game. Pretty cool game!
demo: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqj4j1h6huv4mwa/daz_shamsp5.zip?dl=0

Build quality is miles ahead of the last Shambler map I played and the general gameplay is a step ahead also.

Quite a few of the areas felt very cramped and confined. It works in many of the corridors but the atriums could have used a lot more breathing room. Combat was fine but the level suffers from too many areas where you trigger an ambush and can then safely retreat into a corridor and snipe everything which gets dull after the first time.

I found some secrets! Mostly once everything was dead and I could look around a bit. These kind of secrets are pretty annoying as there is little to no affordance given to the player so finding them when there are enemies around (and when they would be useful) is pretty low. I didn't manage to work out the fishing door but that was a cool touch.

It was cool seeing stuff outside the windows patrolling around. Made me want to explore more to find out how to get there but I couldn't work it out.

Map homage's that I noticed were ZTN Blood Run and the end bit was from an id1 level I forget which one. Maybe there were others,I wanna say a Fat Controller map but unsure.

Stop backspawning dogs :D 

Usefully detailed comments as previous!

I did focus on build quality (for the player, not necessarily behind the scenes). The small size was part of that, as well as a counter to some of my previous maps that I think have been a bit large scaled.

Combat was fine but the level suffers from too many areas where you trigger an ambush and can then safely retreat into a corridor

vs

Stop backspawning dogs :D

There might be a correlation there ;). I didn't want the gameplay to be too brutal or swampy, and I did try to position monsters to work to their strengths. I think avoiding sniping gameplay would have been tricky without more backspawning or arenay type stuff (which I didn't want). Gameplay is supposed to be a bit more "Id1"....or rather "AD1" ;)

These kind of secrets are pretty annoying as there is little to no affordance given to the player so finding them when there are enemies around (and when they would be useful) is pretty low.

Not sure what you mean by "affordance" there. I mostly put in secrets cos I like putting in secrets (and also like trying to find them myself). My plan is that they add gameplay value either for players who are really slow and careful and might find some as they're playing and thus get benefits, or by people who like a general explore at the end or on subsequent plays (which is often what I do, go back through the map). There is no way through to the fishing area as you don't have a permit (I could have made this clearer), but you can see the area from a nearby secret.

Glad the stuff patrolling got noticed :) 

Mathias Worch (of beyond belief fame) has a great gdc talk on affordance here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEF4GVNzkUw

(tldr - give the player consistent clues/hints as to how mechanics in the level work that they can spot ahead of time and plan around)

I think its fine to have secrets that aren't really meant to be found without careful observation or during quiet moments but it felt like in this level these type of secrets would reward combat orientated items such as a quad (my memory is hazy, please correct if I'm wrong) which feels anticlimactic as generally everything is already dead if you've found an observation secret.

I don't think backspawning is the answer to the ambush issue, it boils down to an annoyance that the player takes a few seconds to clear up before going back to the corridor sniping routine. The issue in this map is more of a layout problem whereby the level itself allows for the player to trigger an encounter and then retreat from it. A drop off or other one way route that locks the player into the encounter would be preferable I think but comes with its own risks and headaches (I think most Quake players can recognise this trope by now).

Another technique is not to blow your entire load on the first round of the ambush. Lure the player in with a few enemies and then ratchet up the intensity once they have a feel for the environment and have sussed out a few "safe" spaces to fight in.

I found the secret area that let me see the outside with the fihsing Ogre, I blew up the boxes and killed the Ogre and thought that might open the door but no dice :) 

Really curious about what you did with the secrets, I'll play it again in a few days to try and find them. I enjoyed the map, but not a fan of wall humping for the secrets that I managed to find. Here's my playthrough with ramblings, good stuff as usual! 

I've now gone from "not entirely convinced" on the secrets to "they were a bad idea", for several reasons:

1. In a map where the detail is mostly happening on the micro scale, i.e. tiny circular brushwork rivets, it is a little unfair to demand the player to notice a very/overly subtle change in texture in a particular spot. JCR stumbled into both his secrets by accident, even though they followed the same pattern.

2. It's fine to have secrets that have explicit, discrete triggers, and also fine to have secrets that don't, and require exploration instead. The best secrets will naturally be some combination of both. But the method used here is actually neither. 

Mathias Worch (of beyond belief fame)

Glad you explained that, since obviously nobody on func knows who made Beyond Belief.