it's the maximum monsters allowed to be spawned at once that is the issue I think.
I might tweak around with the source a bit, because I really did get worn out of those early waves testing my map, and I see the same problem in the couple maps I tried so far
Maybe juice it up based on skill level ... make nightmare all out chaos or something.
Absolutely stunning work guys!
Well organised, well supported, well done everyone.
TBH I get bored quickly with Qonquer so have only dabbled in these maps. I do acknowledge that the relatively simplicity of designing arenas rather than full maps make it suitable for a jam though.
Skacky - absolutely beautiful. Attractive enough design to keep me playing for 19 rounds, and only died because i'd got bored playing normally and decided to do 1 weapon only per round, had done sg, ssg, sng, and gl, and then did a quad rocket in my face.
Hypnos - also stunning design and atmosphere. Really exciting and fresh feel to it and would love a full map in this style, exploring and battling all the way up the cliffs / towers. Got to 9 or 10 rounds and it got quite hard.
MFX - had a quick look and will probably play a bit on this as it looked great.
Warren - very nice style, I love the designs. Something was running very choppy for me so I didn't play it.
Scampie - fun idea having a few different arenas. I play the normal one a bit and although it is very simple I really liked the style and vibe of it, nicely done.
Fifth - quite cool for an arena, I played a few rounds, it seemed to work well, although the lava kinda niggled at me. Nice style.
Arcee and Ijed - sorry I didn't like the style nor the lighting.
Some tweaks to the mod to make it more exciting in the opening waves. Also, a bugfix!
- Rebalanced the mod to be faster and exciting in early waves
-- Removed randomness from amount of enemies active and in each wave.
-- Each skill level gives +1 active enemy.
-- Scaling of enemies active per wave slightly increased.
-- Base amount of enemies per wave lowered by 3.
-- Each skill level adds +1 enemy to a wave.
-- Scaling of total enemies added per wave slightly increased.
-- Base enemy spawn delay lowered by 1/4 second.
-- Each skill level gives 1/4 second lowered enemy spawn delay.
-- Scaling of enemy spawn delay reduction per wave reduced to compensate.
-- Base time between waves at all skill levels lowered by 2 seconds.
-- Each skill level gives 1 second less time between waves.
- Maximum minions allowed to a player in later waves rebalanced.
-- Easy used to have a maximum of 2 minions, while Nightmare could have 5!
-- This maximum is now 3 on all difficulties.
-- The player's current maximum is still capped by which wave you are on. (Waves 1-9 1 minion, 10-19 2 minions, etc)
-- Friendly minions spawn at a slower rate on all difficulties. Keep them alive!
- Health now regenerates even on Hard and Nightmare skills, but very slowly.
-- Easy: Unchanged, 1 health per second.
-- Normal: 1 health every 3 seconds.
-- Hard: 1 health every 6 seconds.
-- Nightmare: 1 health every 9 seconds.
Bugfix: Switching weapons after respawning post-intermission no longer crashes the mod.
Scampie Is The Savior
I still get the weapon cycling bug on Quakespasm 0.90 on my Linux computer when using Scampie's version. As a refresher, this is what happens:
I die in any way and get the post-game summary screen. I press space to start a new game. I appear without a visible weapon. I try to cycle to the next or previous weapon. I get a host error with the following info.
IFNOT 3783(?) branch 8
weapons.qc : CycleWeaponCommand
weapons.qc : ImpulseCommands
weapons.qc : W_WeaponFrame
client.qc : PlayerPostThink
runaway loop error
Host_Error: Program error
Again, that is easy to avoid by not cyclign weapons the first thing and only can happen at the beginning of a new game, so it's not a big deal.
I like the feel of these modification after playing a few rounds. It's still a bit annoying to replay the same arena and start with the easy early waves again, but since we have so many arenas to choose from now, you don't have to replay the same one.
There perhaps should be some time limit which ends a wave if you spend too much time without fighting. It would prevent cheesing with regen when there are only monsters left that can't hurt you in a certain area, such as knights that can't reach you, and fix a situation where you end up with an unreachable monster or have the monster count go off. (They should never happen, but... you know.)
Really, there should be a Qonquer mod specific thread to discuss its development and Scampie's suggested changes. I would tentatively say I'm in favor of all the changes Scampie implemented, and thus prefer his version.
but not realy big fan of conquer kind of lacks a goal, and as others said starts out much to slow. Some of these maps deserve a standard single player set up hint hint :)
I am an idiot, I forgot to update the progs.dat in the zipfile with the version where I actually fixed the bug :D
Redownload the zip, it will actually have the fix now.
...this is why you use testers...
I don't think a timelimit or anything like that is the right solution to unreachable enemies. I'll think more on the issue, but I'm not sure I'm willing to fix it. There's a bug there (wave doesn't end because monster is stuck somewhere you can't get to it, or possibly didn't even spawn), and the rest is a gameplay issue that is half the problem of the maps themselves being designed such that Quake's limited AI can't get to you. Might just try and fix the bug, and leave the cheese-able gameplay.
Agree With Orbs
I really don't like that gameplay style. Too slow and boring for my taste. No map exploration and obstacles.
Feel just like some FFA/deathmatch, ... without real players.
While some maps are beautifull, they wont last long on my HD.
I much prefer the old gameplay style (search, explore, ... contemplate)
Sorry. Just my opinion.
You don't need to apologize - liking Qonquer isn't mandatory.
Scampie - perhaps teleport monsters to a random active spawn spot if they go too long without player interaction? I'd say, a two minute grace period after spawn, and then every thirty seconds check if they've taken damage since the last check, or performed a melee or missile attack. If either fails for two checks in a row, random active spawn spot.
Warren - ever try DarkPlacesMod deathmatch mode 7?
Haven't had the time to play through everything yet, recording demos when I have the time.
Played WarrenM and Scampie's maps so far.
@WarrenM Really stunning visuals, easily outshines some commercial games I've played. Loved the slow gate mechanic for the armor, wish I thought of that when I was thinking of a way to slow down access to a quad.
@Scampie Love the aesthetic, nice and mellow. I thought the rapid river mini arena was hilarious.
I do agree the mod feels a bit slow, but it has a ton of potential. It's partly up to the mapper to make it interesting. The first iterations of what I made I got impatient testing it so I kept shrinking the arena to make it a bit faster. The lack of goals and progression can be dealt with too. Warren hints at it in the training arena that comes with the mod with the gated weapon. I'll definitely be exploring this format in the future.
Thanks to Daz for organizing this and putting up with my jackassery ;) and for the testers for figuring out what was going on with my map. Anyway to prevent it in the future? The large water surface I had was to prevent the player from seeing the edge of the world.
repackaged at quaddicted so the injector likes it
After 10+ Rounds Played On All Maps, Some Feedback
Arrcee - not bad for a newcomer to mapping, and I think gameplay would have actually been very good had the map been just a slightly enlarged version of the upper section. The addition of the basement, however, disrupted the flow of the map quite badly by making the map too large and dividing spawns too thinly, meaning that the general pattern of play was to fight off any monsters on the upper level fairly comfortably, then descend below to mop up the ones that hadn't been able to navigate upstairs. Visually it was certainly uneven, with rather jarring texture clashes, but I did like some features such as the lights in the stairwells (or 'rampwells' perhaps).
FifthElephant - overall very good. Lovely texture work and architecture, while gameplay was excellent too, with the map being just the right size to keep up the pace, and with sufficient connectivity to ensure good flow (Qonquer is quite like DM in terms of how a map needs to flow, though perhaps leaning towards a Rocket Arena 1v1 map - as Fifth's resembles - is the best method rather than a traditional DM arena). Might have been good to ensure another cover spot from which to hide from vore balls, since the green armour alcove was generally the only viable spot to do this).
Hypnos - quite an original visual style well executed, though perhaps could have done with greater texture variation (though I read you're still working on the set). In terms of gameplay, I found it a little cramped and travel through the map was rather awkward, though I did like the series of jumps one had to routinely make to keep ammo reserves sustained. Difficulty seemed to suffer from a bizarre spike btw, with it being fairly easy up until the point, about 10 rounds in, that I suddenly found myself fighting 4 shamblers at once o_O.
Ijed - this one was certainly architecturally nice, and executed the metal/runic theme quite well (I liked the faces vomiting lava), though the lighting came up looking a little lurid. In terms of gameplay, it was rather too big and it generally felt a bit laborious tracking down remaining enemies. Also the 2 quads meant one could be powered-up almost all the time, and the lack of shotgun ammo was also a bit strange.
MFX - amazing to look at, only second to Skacky's in this regard, though in terms of actually functioning as a well-rounded Qonquer arena, it wasn't great as the monsters just couldn't really find their way between floors. Would love to see a standard single player map done in this style though.
Scampie - your map was by a distance the best in the release, with the 3 arenas being of high quality aesthetically, and with gameplay that either showed Qonquer at its best, or provided a gimmick that was genuinely imaginative and interesting to play.
Arena 1 was the first map I played and I still think it's the best in Jam 5. Just the right size to keep the pace up, and just enough geometric complexity to be interesting without being so detailed as to result in the player getting snagged on the scenery. The use of triggers to push the monsters around was an excellent idea too, since the Quake AI's lack of proper pathfinding tends to show up quite badly in a mod like Qonquer and some of the other maps suffered from this.
Arena 2 was good also, with the gimmick actually working as a functional game play idea, though I did keep feeling like I was going to crush myself with one of the traps if I clipped one of the buttons right on the edge while moving at high speed. Might have worked better to move the crushers slightly further away from their activators.
When I first entered Arena 3 I thought there must be a bug preventing me from reaching the correct area of the map, but then I realised the idea behind it, and thought it'd maybe be just a mildly amusing silly gimmick that I'd play for 5 rounds or so. It was actually surprisingly fun and well balanced and I ended up playing 20 rounds.
Skacky - one of the most gorgeous Quake maps I've ever seen, it really was spectacular to behold. It was decent enough as a Qonquer arena, though in common with many of the other maps here, it was a little oversized. Also, the long, thin walkways placed some distance apart tended to result in monsters getting stranded a long way from the player, and use of somewhat slow lifts to connect floors tended to slow the pace quite significantly (it would be really interesting to play this map with the A* pathfinding from ne_dynamic, however. I'll get back to that in a minute). As with MFX's map, I'd love to see this art style reappear in a more traditional release.
WarrenM - yet another one with a cool new aesthetic, though it might have been good to dial back the fog slightly so players could see more of that stunning architecture. It was quite fun to play, despite being another entry that was pretty vast in size, and it was good to see the sadly underused minions making an appearance.
...and Some Feedback On Qonquer
As for the mod itself, it was one I'd played a fair bit of and always felt it had got less attention than it deserved, so it's nice to see that being redressed now. I like the changes Scampie has made to it, though it would be welcome to have more of a sense of finality accommodated by the mod's design; ie to enable the player to win by completing a certain number of rounds, or let the monster spawn rate reach such an absurd level that the player has no chance of surviving. As it is, it seems possible to pretty much go on forever, certainly on maps that contain health and armour respawns.
As I mentioned above, Qonquer would really benefit from proper AI pathfinding such as that found in ne_dynamic or In the Shadows, as it would increase the pace and challenge by letting monsters find their way to the player, while also decreasing the likelihood of the player having to scour the map for remaining monsters that have become stuck somewhere. Also, I always felt that ne_dynamic was another sadly overlooked mod, and as such would make an excellent candidate for long overdue recognition via a map jam. For those who don't know, it was a mod that basically enabled Left 4 Dead style gameplay in Quake, with the use of an AI director who would respawn monsters based on various factors similar to those used in Valve's game. Perhaps necros could comment on whether it's in a suitably polished state to be used in a map jam?
That sounds like a fun map jam! I love L4D style games.
I was a fan of Scampie's arena 1 too, and fifthelephant's... actually I was going to come here and post a bit about that & how they reminded me of good Rocket Arena maps in some ways, but someone has saved me a lot of typing!
4 arena styles in one, weapon and monster palette varying with each.
I agree that the mod is not aggressive enough, testing was very laborious.
Dynamic pathing would be cool. Something like the Nehara or Awakening system.
Enjoy my tweaked version folks.
I added the source and a readme explaining what tweaks I have made and compiler settings etc. Just pop it into the Jam5 maps directory.
Nice One 5th!
Even better now.
Skacky's Secret Mapping Tricks?
i haven't tested all the conquer jam maps yet so it's to early for any final verdict. still, i have a question skacky, how you do it? there are plenty of talented mappers, but your map are the best from the technical point of view. i use darkplaces primarily and your maps always run flawlessly.
from what i see yours and warrenm's maps are comparable in the aspects of size or complexicity. however, your map runs smoothly at 50 fps while warrenm's is totally unplayable with average fps around 5 frames/sec. with the same engine settings...even though your map seems to me much bigger. i don't get it. it's not the first case, i tested yours previous maps it's the same story everytime.
ok.. dp is not the recommended engine, but still.. your maps work like charm in darkplaces while a lot of the other maps run significantly slower.
Mine wouldn't VIS. :) So there's that...