errr, I never quite understood that....Killes is like the ugly zit on the ass of a hot whore. 

If we actually had frequent, high-quality map releases, we would at least attract intelligent people--such as nitin and Shambler--even if those people didn't exactly map--such as nitin and Shambler.

I frequently feel like Vondur and I are the only ones who actually do mapping around here. Maybe Doom 3 will change that. Or maybe everyone will fap around in the Doom 3 editor for a week and then go back to idling. Or maybe I'm just exceptionally cynical.

Anyway, having people actually participate is a good start. It is indescribably depressing to release a map and only have five people give comments which are all three lines in length. 

I think the key ingrediant that is lacking or cannot be fullfilled in the Quake mapping Universe is ambition. Certainly it is good to have people who map for the love of the game, but the really high quality maps are going to be made by those with a strong desire to show what they can do and to show that they are a valuable commodity to the game industry. Those with the talent and abilaty to map at the highest levels are going to maximize their exposure by mapping for the most popular platforms, and at this time and generation Quake is firmly ghetto.

Sure there are advantages to the mod hobbiest in mapping for Quake. Coding, modeling and mapping are easily integrated, and fairly easy for one person to achieve if they wish to do so.

However, even this advantage (Quake 3 Arena -- it was a bitch to model for (thank you Mr Steed!) and a bitch to code for compared to Quake 2 and Quake) is not as noteworthy given modeling and mapping are merging together. Far from being harder, it will be easier to create content for Doom3 and Half-Life 2.

Also, show of hands, anyone ever get tired of Ogres, Vore, Scags and their ilk? 

this will all change when Fatty introduces Doom 3 style internal map scripting to his next generation Quake C code, and then the masses will flock to Quake mapping once more. 

Exactly. I mean, scampie hasn't released any normal Q1 maps in the history of Func_msgboard, so we can count on him to not release any other Q1 maps; especially since he decided to abandon SM82, which he repeatedly said would only take a short amount of time for him to finish.

Ehh, scampdm5? And I have received all of sm82 assets. I can't promise I'll finish it, but I promise I will try. If you'd like to help, let me know RPG. 

I agree with Blitz, age is a big factor. I don't mean that just getting older affects your interest, but it's more to do with the other things that come along with it (intense study, jobs, etc.)

I know that things are totally different for me now that I'm working, rather than at Uni. If you don't find a good balance, work can leave you feeling too drained to do anything creative - and that's really depressing. I do feel like maybe I'm starting to get some balance back and I've started to ease myself back into things. The editor is calling me again... 

I'm only on the periphery of this community -- I play new maps, don't have the skills (or the time/inclination to learn how to) make them -- but the last 12 months has seen Februus Depth, Adamantine Cruelty, Bastion of the Underworld and Menkalinan, all of which have to be among the best maps ever released for Q1. What's the problem? It's enough to keep me happy, for sure! 

Ehh, scampdm5?

scampdm5 was released more than a year before Func opened.

And I have received all of sm82 assets. I can't promise I'll finish it, but I promise I will try. If you'd like to help, let me know RPG.

I want SM82 to get finished, and I want to help you. But I'll give you the same answer I gave scampie: I'm already working on too many maps (1 Q3CTF, 2 DMSP, 2 chainmaps, 1 Q1SP, and some mod maps). Of course, if I finish some of these, then Func will have some lovely news items to help keep people interested.

Still, if there's something I can do, you'll have as much support as I can lend. 

thanks for the generous compliment but all I've really been doing for the past few months is spamming Func with my opinions on movies. 

why are my releases being called into question? wtf, am I the whole of the community? quit trolling RPG and stay on the goddamn topic. 

Without the work of the individual, there will be no expansion or growth.

</zen> 

Oh, it's this time of the year again. 

I'll help! I nagged scampie to let me help in the first place and my maps are never going to be finished anyway. That's one thing I want to do more of - community maps are something I'm really interested in for a few reasons. You don't have to keep yourself interested because you don't do the whole map, just a piece of it, you get to work with people you admire, and the community is a better place because of it.

But anyway let me help with sm82. 

I am Q1 mapping atm. Hard. Necros and I are both knee deep in workload. We are contributing in the best way we can. I do this because I cannot play D3 now and probably won't for some time. I do it because I want to contribute material that makes an impact on other peoples' imaginations. But mostly I do it because I love Quake. Which maybe rather sad an geeky and oldskool and antisocial and pseudo-nostalgic. But it's true. So there you have it.
Now leave me the fuck alone, I have verts to manipulate. 

And Quake is the game I keep coming back to the most even when the Scags spit too languidly, the Ogres grenades just plop to the side, and the fiends are easily side stepped. 

But anyway let me help with sm82.
I will, if I need it. Most likely I will. I plan on diving in later this evening after I've done some feasibility research on a few pbrsp2 ideas.

Also, in an attempt to not totally derail this thread into sm82 talk, I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore. Just because people dont change their nicks to <nickname>|mapping in #tf doesn't mean it isn't going on. What have you done for me lately, indeed. 

Well I'm mapping my tits off at the moment trying to get Bastion II beta'd before September. After that, I'm probably gonna do a Q3DM, then check out this new Doom thingamajig, then probably back to Q1SP.

Sometimes I feel a little bit like a hamster on it's wheel, but it's always worth it. 

I just wanted to say that RPG and Vondur are certainly NOT the only ones mapping anymore

as a quick look at my site will confirm. 

In the discussion before RPG's remark there was reference to mappers who started out earlier, several years ago, and how many still hang out on #tf and the func_ board but who do not actively map. So, I think RPG was referring to that fact in his statement and not discounting newer mappers on the scene. 

it is just taking a long time. :) 

less hate!

more crates 

i say support d3 (and newer related games like q4) when/if its mapping community starts to blossom. but someone already said it earlier so who cares.
my second-hand 2 cents. 

 

The problem with adapting this community is defining what exactly this community is. If you can't do that, then it can only be defined by what it is, which strongly encourages it to never adapt.

1. "Qmap/#tf community" -- I've been reading and posting to QMap/Func since the latter days of TeamShambler yet didn't even figure out or care what #tf was until a year ago, since which I've spent maybe an hour and a half on it.

At times this difference between my perspective and most oldtimers here has become obvious, despite no requirement to participate in both.

2. Quakeworld/multiplayer -- also seems strong in the roots of this community, yet more recently the emphasis has been more on SP. This is natural for an older game of course, since without new maps the SP aspect of a game becomes history.

3. Quake SP -- with those complexities out of the way I'll assume *just for a moment* everyone loves Quake SP. Are there identifyable qualities of Quake SP that can be adapted to an expansion into other games? Or is this again defined by what it has been?

My own experience says no, it's not adaptable. Of course this is not a perfect experiment because this is based on my maps which are certainly not beyond criticism. But, there is an air of resistance. I just deleted most of this paragraph because I'm not trying to start an argument here as to if this is a good example. I think it's a real and actual issue though. In fact, at least one of my maps was never given ANY criticism truly informed by learning to play and completing it; to date only one person has verified proper completion of it and they sang a completely different tune.

The fact is, I'm the same way. It's a busy world and you have to filter somewhere. Still, if someone came here with a map for another game I own and promised wilder play and less BS I'd probably check it out. For example I tried Pax Imperia for Q2, despite Q2 being far from my favorite FPS. It was pretty good, but also an example of another problem: it wasn't good enough that it won't take even bigger promises to get me to try another Q2 addon.

With regards to criticism, there's also another split: players vs. mappers. Players care about results while mappers get hung up on every technical flaw. That is, there's a split if any of the player types are left here. How much of this technical criticism is pure and how much of it is this "air of resistance" I can't say except I doubt it's 100% pure.

I hope this doesn't read like it's all about me, maybe 5 years as a sort of participating outsider yields some useful perspective. Maybe most in this community assumes everyone knows and agrees what it is, if that's true here's one vote to the contrary, I'm still figuring it out. 

Quake, whether by design or complete fluke Id got it right. The game itself opened up the possibility of a long lived forum (or series of forums) with addons, like this one. It will go on for some time yet.

Now...if Id has got it right again (or at least closer than some of the bollox released in the last five years) with Doom3, then I hope that game finds a home herein. Why? Well when I get around to mapping for D3 (and Q4) I want to be able to count on valuable assistance, encouragement and criticism. The same sort of thing I've accepted in the face of my Quake ventures. Harsh sometimes, sometimes kind but in general honest, informed, useful and most of all well rounded. I'll go somewhere else if I desire myopic candy coated BS.

...and if D3 ends up blowing, we can always hold out for Q4.