This mod is really beyond awesome. It's not often that someone produces such a highly refined work with so many new and modified aspects and such a huge sense of perfection(ism). Apart from the level design and brushwork, everything is new or touched up, however obvious or subtle - almost a new game.

I recommend everyone to try the stealth mode. It takes some getting used, but once you got the hang of it, it's a lot fun and adds a good bit of replayablility to the levels. Mind you, this is coming from someone who usually stays clear of stealth games for a lack of skill and patience.
Read the hints in the readme and practice a bit. I think the hardest part to master (especially for a less-seasoned player or non-mapper) is getting a feeling for the enemies bounding boxes and where to shoot the distraction bolts without hitting them. And it's important to axe them right in the back - not the sides as it often happens when you approach them to clumsily or imprecisely.

Concerning the problems of getting lost: I agree the fact that the Vault button is hidden is unfortunate in this case, because in the current state of the mod (=main maps missing), the bonus maps that are accessed through the vault tutorial shift to the center of attention, which, however, isn't made clear ingame. The button itself and the original setup as well as the idea behind it are fine and wouldn't be an issue if this was the full version of the mod.
To be honest, I'm rather disappointed at all you supposedly seasoned Quake players once again failing at the basic Quake skills of navigation (exploration) and secret finding - for the button isn't hard to find at all. And if someone got lost in the parts prior to the vault, Quake probably isn't the right game for them anyway. But I can somewhat imagine/understand how people not used to single player mode may have more problems finding the way to proceed in the vault. So I hope Sock changes this in a way that benefits the demo character of the mod, but does not oversimplify it for the full version.

Though perhaps it would be a good idea to have the stealth tutorial section appear in an individual map for quick access (in addition to the one in the start map). The information that poison bolts cause infighting could be appear in one of the shadow story books, by the way. 

To be honest, I'm rather disappointed at all you supposedly seasoned Quake players once again failing at the basic Quake skills of navigation (exploration) and secret finding - for the button isn't hard to find at all. And if someone got lost in the parts prior to the vault, Quake probably isn't the right game for them anyway.

It may be a more generalized fault of the start map's layout.

It is designed to funnel players to the level change triggers quickly, but the map plays like a normal map at the start, so when you get to the end triggers with a lot of the map unexplored, you feel like you missed something which puts you into backtrack mode. 

It is designed to funnel players to the level change triggers quickly

Yeah the design is certainly trying to focus players towards the final triggers with one way lifts and loops (temple stairs) to stop players getting lost in dead ends. One of the big problems with this mod is an identity crisis, it should decide if it is going to be stealth or not. Plus the shifting focus to the vault so the bonus maps can be played screwed with the vault button logic. Originally it was designed to be a secret only. 

If you want them, originally made by Gb for RMQ.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/et5arm38eao5cxf/rmq_footsteps.zip 

Well, it's a hub map with more functions than a regular start map would have. It's also supposed to be replayed on normal or stealth mode several times, with changing routes and enemy setups. In this sense the funneling function loses a lot of its importance.

The layout itself isn't overly complicated or confusing (lower level->upper level->spiral staircase/vault and a couple of extra rooms. With two level exits on the upper level (currently inaccessible) and two in the vault room. The only source of confusion I can accept in light of the inaccessible main exits is the secretness of the vault (progress) button. 

Re: disappointed
It's just that whenever I see people complain about nonlinear layouts where they get lost, I cringe (especially in a case like these maps - they are certainly no sprawling mazes). People are often quick to critize modern games for their linearity and revel in the good old times where (Quake) games allowed or required a good amount of exploration. But when it actually comes to exploration, they fail to find their way and critize a feature they previously praised.

I'm certinaly not a master of navigation, but I can manage here and elsewhere, so this always suprises me again. (Hope sock doesn't blow my cover! :O) 

finding the vault button.
I was already in switch hunting mode due to the liberal peppering of secrets (and the frequent use of hidden shootable switches) throughout the level. 

It's probably better to not hide it in 1.1, though. 

@ijed, thanks for the zip :)
@negke, I can add the footsteps as a global impulse toggle? would that be better? default is off but players can turn them on if they want more sound?

I can't really comment on the navigation of the start map anymore because I know where every trigger, spawn, item is and I placed every brush! So the start map feels really straight forward to me, but people are getting lost and it all falls apart at the vault with the button.

One other problem is the demon trap at the beginning, the buttons on the walls are too confusing and only one button should be on the wall (depending on route) so players know which button to press.

I was totally surprised by how many people (in the demo's I have seen) picked up the silver key and walked across the room to the second silver key door!?! I was hinting at which one to try first (the right route is harder) but most people ignore the door infront of them.

The whole mess of modern games being too linear is because developer want players to progress and I can totally understand this. I want players to see the rest of my mod and not give up on the first map! There is nothing more disappointing than seeing a player frustrated and giving up because the design is wrong. 

Optional, default off footsteps sounds like something I could live with.

Even though the 'nearest' button looks obviously pressed and unusable, it's indeed somewhat inconsistent insofar as the corresponding cage is not in the lowered position. I don't think you should necessarily remove the unusable button entirely, though, considering the 'logic' of the room/mechanisms. Maybe only make it look blocked or locked (padlock?). Other instances of double buttons, however, can be changed so that only one button appears depending on the route (an example would be the two vault buttons).

Taking the opposite door sounds like something I would do, too. It's a bit of an exploration reflex. If there's an arrow saying "go here to proceed", I deliberately check out the other direction to make sure not to miss something worthwhile. A typical "don't push this button" situation. :) 

Tried again, got lost in the statue area again.

Track III from http://www.discogs.com/Isothesis-Cocoon-Of-Red-Light/release/932941 fits perfectly, not free though sadly. If you are interested in properly free soundtrack music I will try more. ;) 

@spirit, If you can find some free (creative common) music that could be played in background that would be awesome. But it should be something low key and ambient so it does not drown out important sound clues.

I suppose the perfect situation is getting a musician to create proper mood pieces that could be switched depending on what is happening, combat, moody exploration, special encounters etc. Something for the wish list. :/

I can certainly setup background music files as a toggle impulse command so players can decide if they want to listen to music or not. 

On both sides of the statue hall are spiral staircases that lead down to the vault area. It's practically impossible to get lost there (especially since you now know you have to look for a secret button down there). 

negke (and sock of course): http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/its-demo1e-start-normal-firstrun-Spirit-more.7z

I will try again now that I know where to look. :P

CC music for sure. I got loads of Ambient. Just now I listened to https://archive.org/details/tlhotra012 "Labio maternal" while playing, fits nicely. http://altusmusic.ca/rem/ might work too but I am not 100% sure about the ND clause.


I REALLY dislike the quake.rc binding the mousewheel the modern way. In the good old days mouse down = next, mouse up = prev. 

@spirit, awesome I will download it and see how it goes with a stealth run. By the way what is the best way to include this with quake mods? wav? ogg? I assume I need to save this as 16 mono?

quake.rc, I added mouse wheel bindings because the default engine settings has none and it drives me nuts. I tried to add as many useful things to the quake.rc as possible and I assumed anyone could it extract it from the pak file and change it how they wish. Maybe it might be better to distribute the file outside of the pak file so it can be changed easier? 

Quake.rc is supposed to be the file that the players agree not to modify. What might be a reasonable solution would be to modify it centrally so that the binding of the mousewheel comes earlier in the quake.rc file than the class to config.cfg and autoexec.cfg, so players which already have it bound will get their defaults, and players who don't get the mod's setting. 

That should read:

earlier in the quake.rc file than the call to config.cfg and autoexec.cfg


Too much typing about class in the other thread... 

havent had a chance to play this yet but this 'feature' almost always annoys me, and I cant really see it working in what this mod sounds like either.

Or, as negke said, please make them optional. 

Uhm, are you sure there's an exit there? And that the exit can be reached without cheating? I explored the first map for almost one hour and it feels like a big DM map without an exit.

But there has to be an exit, right? Everything else is perfect: great detail, incredible feeling, nice gameplay (until you get stuck). Ah, I had to change texture_mode, pixels were nice back in 96, now they look a bit "not ok". 

 

No footsteps please. 

Don't worry everyone, footsteps will be an optional impulse command so if anyone wants them they can toggle them on.

@RaverX, yeah there is an exit, find the shadow vault area (below the statue room) and keep looking for the stupid vault button in that room grrrrrr :( 

Don't feel obligated to add them, I was just tossing the idea. I like being able to determine where an AI is by listening to their footsteps, but like I said the mod already plays extremely well as it is. :p 

I like the idea of footsteps and will add them, but I will make them optional so everyone is happy. I honestly don't mind adding stuff and I prefer if people tell me if they don't like something, it gives me a better idea of how to improve stuff. Lots of people saying the same thing is good feedback. :) 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcoMu-w1dvE

tl;dw Awesome so far! Really didn't find anything to complain about, aside from the hidden button to open the vault door.