i am always surprised when i open PQ at how many teams actually succeed. i have to say, i respect them and all of you a lot for meeting targets. yea, most teams might not but there`s still a lot making very good stuff, and free which is mind boggling.

as for playing maps, i`m the kind to have about 100-odd maps on rotation and play them. why know dm4 by heart when you can know all your favourite maps just as well. oh, and i DONT play dm on q3 till i can beat the nightmare level. not enough time in the day to be honest!

aard: i think mapping for an ancient engine is still quite cool (altho maybe the majority of people think its boring)!

it`s quite good as it is where mappers make maps for mods. its "sorta" like a team but i know, not quite as good. but still...

ps. metl: take off your hockey suit, get up from the couch and put down the huge remote control in your hand.

and stop laughing madly...

grumble

````` 

Im sure artists will produce "geometry" packs just the same way many people use custom texture packs.. sure it might still be similar to just using the stuff that comes with the game from the mappers pov but there will be stuff different from what the game offers in future games too. This is pretty much how things work in ut2k3 and there are people making maps with their own or other peoples models.

And since people doing stuff at home for fun dont have deadlines they can very well do both geometry and gameplay altho only very few will actually be able to do it good. 

. 

- you stop mapping, and do something more worthwhile, like coding ;)

Long live the coders! Bwahahaha! ;)

Actually, coders have it rough too. They need maps AND models AND graphics support AND a good dentist because they grind their teeth so bad with stress. :)

Plus, they also need to do some actual coding...

The nice thing is, with modding you`re just changing what`s already there. It`s like starting with a pre-built map and just changing what`s there. Very simple.

That is also its greatest weakness, obviously. 

...Are the scum of the earth. See Maj as an example.

He's also Welsh, which just compounds the issue. 

Aardappel - yes exactly!

Wrath & Nitin - ROFLMAO!!

Speedy - you`ve got to have a fucking high boredom threshold anyway to play tennis for god`s sake!

Bear - interesting point. 

I don't see that is going to work. A large & _useful_ geometry pack would be an order of magnitude more work than a texture pack. And while there are some very good & consistent texture packs (by iikka, sock, rorschach, metlslime etc.) there are not all that many.

available free geometry sofar has been VERY poor, with the exception of some of the better polycount models.

To be able to work with prefab geometry its gotta be very complete, diverse and extensive, all with texturing, maybe bumpmaps etc. Really only a company with a dozen artists working full time can pull that off (trust me, I see this process in action every day, and the results can be quite amazing).

And even if there were some good geometry packs, it is much harder to create your own style with a geometry pack, then it was using a texture pack and your own geometry (in how many different ways have we seen ikbase used exactly?) 

Coders...Are the scum of the earth.

Oh, come on. You love us and you know it. ;) 

Come to #terrafusion so I can kickban you. Please.

Actually, I'm willing to admit that not all coders are scum. metlslime is a good example of a fine, upstanding coder. Actually, I wouldn't really categorize him as a coder, but he can still code stuff. I think the fact that he doesn't have delusions of grandeur is really what does it. Most of my conversations with coders have gone like this:

Me: Blah your mod/engine/whatever doesn't work on my map or any of these classic maps by huge authors!
Coder: Silence, pathetic fool! You're ruining my vision of an infallible mod/engine/whatever, and I refuse to listen to the pleas of philistines such as yourself.
Me: What kind of stupid logic does that make?! I'm just trying to help you make it better by pointing out bugs so you can make your mod/engine/whatever even better!
Coder: I told you to stop running your driveling pie hole, infidel! It's mappers like you who don't use mods/engines/whatevers that destroy the coding scene.
Me: Blah well with elitism like that it's no wonder people won't play your mods/engines/whatevers!
*RPG has logged off 

I supopse I dont really have a lot of confidence in that people will actually do this (good anyway), specially seeing how people havent really used what q3 has to offer when it comes to creating strong and coherrent new visuals in maps (using own texes, map models, sounds and geometry for realising one vision).

The kind of "products" the "community" puts out havent really changed much since quake or even doom days other than keeping up with the updated but still very similar engine tech.

One can always hope that things will change a little when most new games will almost require cooperation to creat ethings that isnt just the out of the box objects arranged in new ways. It should in anycase bring more new people (modelers that preiously have almost only been used for character models) into creating extra game content. 

I don`t understand what you`re saying about geometry (models I presume). Are you saying the amount of detail is just too much, and equating the switch to models which makes that possible with the workload itself? Or are the tools more difficult (why?) or is the degree to which it requires "artists" instead of creative techs higher (not necessarily). 

And when I talk about how the "community" havent changed much since its beging Im talking about:

a) most mappers, texture artists, modelers etc just do their own thing, release maps, texture sets or models as seprate things

b) some exceptions like mappers that also do their own textures for their maps (in most cases the textures arent all that great anyway)

c) mods, people try to gather to create something together but usually the projects die. The ones that survive usually suffers from inconsistant quality because only a small part of the team are actually good at what theyre doing. Only on a few very rare occasioins is a mod copleted that is at least good in every field. 

u obviously havent checked HL mod scene

shamb: actually I get bored pretty fast with almost anything. and I dont play tennis

for ut2 mapping I guess you need to do most of your geometry in maya (maybe some other 3d editor). Tool much more complex than any map editor, but also very powerfull - u can do in few minutes geometry that would take hours to create from brushes/patches (if even possible). Doing skinmapping and skins can be another task (but look, many ut2 mapmodels are flat textured, so why bother).
So sure it becomes harder to make maps for new engines, but its still possible to do single-handedly. There are already some great examples. 

It seems I have a point here. Hell Aardappel posted along the same lines so it must be right, yeah? =).

Seems like a pity, a real pity.

It could be that mapping has had it`s golden period, gaming-wise, from, say, Doom to UT. From when FPS games became sophisticated enough to create your own special world in them, to when they start to become too complicated to feasibly make a world as an amateur.

It would be quite sad, all that creativity we`ve seen, the communities thriving on it, a steady stream of inspiring amateur releases, that will be halted, won`t be able to move forward with recent and future games....sure there will be some great mapping regardless....but less...

Maybe the QMap community, as focused as it is on older games (albeit sometimes too claustrophobically) is the way forward after all, by staying in the past?? Hmmmm... 

. 

maya. yes. nice.

wish i could use it for geometry in quake. 

Me: Blah your mod/engine/whatever doesn`t work on my map or any of these classic maps by huge authors!
Coder: Silence, pathetic fool! You`re ruining my vision of an infallible mod/engine/whatever, and I refuse to listen to the pleas of philistines such as yourself.
Me: What kind of stupid logic does that make?! I`m just trying to help you make it better by pointing out bugs so you can make your mod/engine/whatever even better!
Coder: I told you to stop running your driveling pie hole, infidel! It`s mappers like you who don`t use mods/engines/whatevers that destroy the coding scene.
Me: Blah well with elitism like that it`s no wonder people won`t play your mods/engines/whatevers!


You know, I really want to disagree with you, but you`re actually right. :( There`s a lot of coders of either engines or mods that are just full of themselves.

And then there`s the "mod authors" that are really just spastic 12 year olds that figure "whoa, it`d be reeeal cool if you could have every known weapon and feature of every game in the world in the same mod. I can`t code, so I`ll just make other people do it for me."

And then the mod authors that say "I`m making a mod that needs special maps. You`re a mapper, do them for me. I need them by saturday!".

/me has spent the last 6 or so years trying to avoid becoming like that. 

Alot of new games are moving to scripting system which are getting more and more complex. Some companies have dedicated teams/individuals who look after the scripting elements of the game and do nothing else. Scripting is an extremely powerful tool for the development cycle but without the relevant people around to ask for help it quickly becomes frustrating.

Plus some of the newer games are very narrow on mapping styles and restrict the freedom of the mapper by imposing realistic limitations. RTCW is a classic example because the game is grounded in reality and set to a certain time period WW2.

Mostly the greatest factor against community SP maps is simply time, due to alot of the more modern games being too damn complex. I really feel sorry for newbie mappers nowadays because of all the skills that are required to produce just a simple map. The tools really need to become more friendly and visual. Like the ingame editing of Doom3 or Crytek latest engine.

The development tools need to be purged and made more friendly so as not to restrict artist ideas.

Sock 

What is the purpose afterall ?

Maybe to create and have fun ?
And get recognition too (doh)

Even if its hard to keep up with the maps created by teams of skilled profesionals it shouldnt stop creative people

One thought : there used to be only 1 major 3d mappable game, then there were like 2-3. Now there are many (I dont know how many) and I assume there are more people making maps nowerdays than there used to be in the days of doom (no pun), but they are scattered through many different game communities. 

Games may be getting more complex, and maybe custom mapping will fall out completely for a while. But if that does happen, game editing itself will not fail. There will always be things to change, even if it`s done on a smaller scale or different things are changed.

Another thing is, mapping may become incredibly hard for a few years, but it`s almost inevitable that the *way* it`s done will eventually be revolutionized, and all the tools and needs will be unified under a common editor that will handle a number of things for you. Tools will be more sophisticated, demands on the user will be lowered.

We used to be exacerbated by the amount of work it would take to program a computer to do addition and subtraction. Things change, hopefully for the best. 

[quote]Even if its hard to keep up with the maps created by teams of skilled profesionals it shouldnt stop creative people
[/quote]

What they usually do is so predictable, it`s not necessarily even competitive with the freedom of making no money. However, I don`t see many examples of working in a different direction yet. Mostly people try to outdo original id stuff, which is only worthwhile because you can use the original Quake monster set and they can`t.

Also, custom maps can be more challenging than would normally be accepted. 

Yes to both of those purposes - I`d also add "To make a quality product" too. But it still serves my point...

Maybe to create and have fun ?

Yeah and it`s harder to create something satisfying if the game is restrictive for mapping and your best efforts don`t equal the in-game maps.

And get recognition too (doh)

And it`s harder to get recognition if your amateur map looks like a newbie box map incomparison to much better team-made in-game maps.

...... 

i feel the mapper can become detached if the tools are so complex that you dont know what they are doing. its like driving the latest merc which does everything for you. nice, but not very satisfactory.
its nice to get a grasp of all the technical aspects. maybe not at the start but when you encounter errors and stuff, the technical knowledge helps alot.
sure, i can make something hugely complex in maya but not necessarily exactly what i want. same goes for music progs where i am searching forever for the right "sound", when a musician can more directly get it by matching his guitar to whatever amp and whatever speakers. 

Ion cleanser, now with 97.6% more bullshit!