I thought you'd used frik waypoints for the AI, but there's no .way files... 

One thing I ditched in ruins was that coins and such originally counted for secrets.
I had inflated normal secrets to count for 10 points and coins counted for 1 each so that at the end you could see if you got all the coins and secrets.
I ended up ditching it though because there was no way to tell if you missed 1 secret or 10 coins. :(
But yeah, I LOVE collecting stuff like that when I play. Kind of obsessive actually... made playing Painkiller hard for me as it would annoy me when vases were broken in combat and I couldn't pick up the coins. :P 

of the gold in Castle Wolfenstein.

'Why's it there!?!?!'
'...to be collected'

:) 

What might be cool is that, since the explanation is that the amulet is the thing destroying the items... maybe after it absorbs enough items you get a free 'vanish' one-time ability. 

I thought you'd used frik waypoints for the AI, but there's no .way files

I wrote my own version in QC and if you turn on 'dev mode' and restart any of the maps you will see a bunch of rotating cubes everywhere with letters on them.

* There are 4 basic types of node as follows:

* Regular nodes can only have two routes, forward and back. They usually connect rooms together and allow AI to follow a path.

* Switch nodes are like regular nodes except they offer a third route which the AI can switch too. Useful for doors or alternative paths.

* Orphan nodes are used to feed AI back into the node network and are often positioned in dead ends or sections where the AI needs to escape from but not enter. (like water/slime sections)

* Idle nodes are only used after combat for locations where the AI will hang out and make sure the player is still not lurking around. They are useful for thinning out the crowd if a lot of AI are trying to return to what they were doing before.

Most nodes types can have additional functions assigned to them which can be enabled/disabled by other trigger events.

* Disabled, the AI will ignore this route (Generally should be on switches so they can easily ignore the third route) They appear as brown nodes visually.

* Jump, a destination location for a monster to jump at, only works if another node has a target pointing at it. (has a blue marker above the node)

* Range, lets the AI know this is a good location for range attacks and will use this based on skill level percentages. A good thing for AI on ledges because it stops them running around in circles trapped. (has a blue marker above the node)

* Blind, will not do any sight checks while traveling to next node, useful for auto opening doors and other triggers. (the node skin is blue when active)

* Flowreset, makes the AI check if it is going in the right direction by re-checking which routes are the best way to go. (the node skin is pink)

* Volumes, will make yes/no decisions based on XYZ volumes if they should go a certain direction. Useful for fine tuning the node network and making sure AI get to the player faster by ignoring large parts of the map. (has a white marker above the node)

You can see how the nodes are linked together by switching on 'notarget' and touching each node. It will change the skin of all attached nodes around it and draw a letter showing its relationship.

Hope that helps :) 

I certainly like the idea of collecting stuff, but what the player is collecting should be worth something. The MOD already has a stat showing how much was destroyed by the amulet.

What might be cool is that, since the explanation is that the amulet is the thing destroying the items... maybe after it absorbs enough items you get a free 'vanish' one-time ability.

Yeah I really like this idea, it would be cool to reward the stealth player with something useful after destroying so many items. I will add that to my new list :) 

Some screenshots of the node network
s1m2 Nodes s1m2 Nodes
s1m1 Nodes s1m1 Nodes Editor 

http://www.suspenlute.com/fr3ns1m1.zip 

http://www.suspenlute.com/stuff/fr3ns1m1.zip 

Two demos at http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/preach-shadows.zip

The first demo is a bit awful tbh, when I entered the start map I'd seen all the previews so I was expecting to sneak straight away, when actually you're just meant to play it straight. So I'd fast forward all the way through to the amulet, where the training basically went ok. There follow two attempts at s1m1, when I get cornered and killed. The next play through I forgot to record, but I went for pure backstabbing everything and managed to finish.

The second demo is a play through s2m2 which goes quite well.

I'd suggest that the sound cues when the amulet protection is gone need more differentiation. At the moment you get a sound cue when the amulet starts recharging, and one when it finishes - but both play the same sound. I think they need to be audibly different, and also a third cue needs to be added - for when a recharging fails because you've been spotted again. 

To check it out in-engine yet, but it seems your AI system bears a lot of similarity to the frikbot system - even down to node types, with yours being focused on stealth and SP obviously.

My internet is patchy right now so can't link to the frikbot waypoint definitions, but it might be interesting to give it a look. 

@Fern, thank you very much for the demo's, starting out on hard skill reminded me of demo's by negke where he was trying to get into the front door s1m1. You did find the upper balcony shortcut at one point but never went back. I am not sure if the training section in the start map should be more so everyone understand more stealth concepts or to let players trial and error and die a lot.

@preach, damn that stupid vault button, totally ruins this demo. :( It was unfortunate you found so many places where the AI did stupid things. The one thing that did worry me was how you used poison bolts on buttons, not sure how to get across to the player they are valuable and not easy to find.

The sound cues for the amulet are certainly not good because they use existing sounds which I think confuses so many people. I think new sounds will have to be created and probably on all stages of the amulet being disabled/enabled. 

...this weekend just because I feel like it 

supposing you DID need sounds, do you have a list specifically of what's "missing" i.e. which events currently use stock sounds and would be better off with original sounds? 

I do not read other replies here so I don't spoil it for myself. is some button missing for me due to a (quakespasm) bug or is it a general problem with it? if I should look harder please give me a rough hint. 

The vault button has annoyed me long enough, it has soured the release of this mod for me because hardly anyone can find it. Don't worry I know this is my fault for hiding in a stupid place. :(

I am going to fix this and all the other feedback I have gotten so far in a new version for next week. It also gives me the chance to add a few more things that were missing because of timing problems with the release.

@spirit, I would recommend waiting until next week and a better version which will fix my design flaws.

@Fern, that would be amazing if you could help with the sounds because I am not that good at that stuff and I want to fix all the other bugs first. Shoot me an email (mememe[at]simonoc.com) and I can let you know all the sound stuff I currently use.

To anyone else who has not had the chance to play the mod yet, hold off until next week. Version 1.1 will be a much better design featuring less getting lost in the start map!

If anyone feels they want to see more stuff or has a groovy idea for something in the MOD, please let me know and I will try to get it in the new release for next week. 

The only thing I'd like to see added is footsteps to help the player guess where the monsters are if they do not have a visual on them, but it's definitely not a priority since I find the gameplay great as it is, and besides it's probably quite hard to do properly. Concerning the switch, I had no real problem finding it since I figured out I had to look for something to open the gate and I often look every nook and cranny for secrets, but I can definitely understand some people got annoyed and did not find it. However like most people I thought I would be thrown into stealth mode straight away in the start map, but I soon understood that it would come later.

Also, I recently figured out that poison bolts can cause infighting. I know this is written somewhere, but I was delighted when I found this out and couldn't stop laughing at the sight of a Shambler murdering two knights because I shot him in the back. 

I die a lot.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2umayft2odrq8c/ijed_castle_demos.zip

I kept thinking that the fade-out closets could be invisible / inviolate to the monsters. So that if or when the player screws up they still have a hidey hole to recover in / escape to. 

I can certainly add all the code for this to every monster but there is a couple of problems with this.

1) I would need good footstep sounds for every monster and the player.

2) There is no surface information in quake so all footsteps would sound the same regardless of what they were walking on, which is odd.

3) If there are a lot of monsters around it will get very noisy with all the different footsteps. The sound attenuation is already different depending on what engine is used. (damn engine coders grrr) and very large areas will get very noisy. Probably will have to do range checks to play the sound within a certain range.

The vault button is in a stupid location and I am fed up watching demo's of frustrated people going up and down between the vault and the temple looking for a simple switch. It does not need to be hidden, I will just stick it at the end of the room next to the book about the amulet.

Well I could add a poison infighting tutorial after the initial poison training but I did not want to show every feature. I assumed people would love to discover some stuff by accident on their own. This is tricky because it is a cool feature but I don't want to make the tutorial really long as well. 

Damn shame this did not make the top 100. :( 

Using fitz 0.85 with command line `fitzquake085.exe -game shadows -heapsize 64000 +map start,` I don't have the crossbow when I start, there's no eye above any enemies head and the axe isn't a killing blow from behind. Anyone have an idea why that would happen (and yes, I've correctly installed the mod :p). This also happens in qbism and directq. 

jt_, same assumption that I had. It is actually vanilla gameplay at the beginning, stealth comes later at some point. 

@jt_, The MOD does not start with stealth because I want players to understand other stuff first, like new pickups, new monsters and the chance to read some books. You get the stealth mode once you have completed the training. (Find the vault)

I thought it would be far too frustrating playing stealth mode without any clues what to do and I want players to try the other maps. I would recommend waiting till next week for a better release version. 

This mod is really beyond awesome. It's not often that someone produces such a highly refined work with so many new and modified aspects and such a huge sense of perfection(ism). Apart from the level design and brushwork, everything is new or touched up, however obvious or subtle - almost a new game.

I recommend everyone to try the stealth mode. It takes some getting used, but once you got the hang of it, it's a lot fun and adds a good bit of replayablility to the levels. Mind you, this is coming from someone who usually stays clear of stealth games for a lack of skill and patience.
Read the hints in the readme and practice a bit. I think the hardest part to master (especially for a less-seasoned player or non-mapper) is getting a feeling for the enemies bounding boxes and where to shoot the distraction bolts without hitting them. And it's important to axe them right in the back - not the sides as it often happens when you approach them to clumsily or imprecisely.

Concerning the problems of getting lost: I agree the fact that the Vault button is hidden is unfortunate in this case, because in the current state of the mod (=main maps missing), the bonus maps that are accessed through the vault tutorial shift to the center of attention, which, however, isn't made clear ingame. The button itself and the original setup as well as the idea behind it are fine and wouldn't be an issue if this was the full version of the mod.
To be honest, I'm rather disappointed at all you supposedly seasoned Quake players once again failing at the basic Quake skills of navigation (exploration) and secret finding - for the button isn't hard to find at all. And if someone got lost in the parts prior to the vault, Quake probably isn't the right game for them anyway. But I can somewhat imagine/understand how people not used to single player mode may have more problems finding the way to proceed in the vault. So I hope Sock changes this in a way that benefits the demo character of the mod, but does not oversimplify it for the full version.

Though perhaps it would be a good idea to have the stealth tutorial section appear in an individual map for quick access (in addition to the one in the start map). The information that poison bolts cause infighting could be appear in one of the shadow story books, by the way. 

To be honest, I'm rather disappointed at all you supposedly seasoned Quake players once again failing at the basic Quake skills of navigation (exploration) and secret finding - for the button isn't hard to find at all. And if someone got lost in the parts prior to the vault, Quake probably isn't the right game for them anyway.

It may be a more generalized fault of the start map's layout.

It is designed to funnel players to the level change triggers quickly, but the map plays like a normal map at the start, so when you get to the end triggers with a lot of the map unexplored, you feel like you missed something which puts you into backtrack mode.