this is one of the most infuriating maps i've ever played. if it wasn't so awesome in every other department i would have LONG stopped playing it out of frustration

ammo balance was shit, monsters being thrown at you from all directions while carefully dodging lava = not cool, having scrags & ogres spawn around you when in a tiny little cable car above lava = not cool...

i ended up going completely the wrong way first time round as when you get to the main fortress entrance you can slope-jump up to the ledge on your left towards the gold key, which i did thinking it was the right route! was only once i got the keys and ended up going backwards through the top inside bit that i realised i'd gone wrong - by this time the main fortress was virtually unplayable as all monsters were in there at the same time; i decided to cut my losses and start again. but it didn't end up being much easier second time round either...

the 'end arena' (not knowing this at the time) looked like it was meant to be accessible from the gold key bit (possibly as a secret) and i spent ages trying to trick-jump my way down there to get the supplies, eventually managed it after copious quickloads and THEN realised it was an end battle accessed from later on so had to reload.

there was also another irritating bit early on in the cave underground - you can slope-jump to your left to get a YA on a ledge, and when you turn round and look down to your right there is a cave entrance further down that looks like a secret. if it was meant to be accessible then i gave up trying to jump to it after about the 10th attempt, having to quickload each time.

--

all of the above is really such a shame as shitty annoying gameplay aside, this map is amazing. really amazing, especially for id1 - the attention to detail is nothing short of astounding; probably moreso than in any other quake map i can think of. the layout is awesome, the designs are awesome, the atmosphere is fucking immense - especially early on before you encounter any monsters.

i strongly believe this could be a classic of the highest order with (a) the minor route problems fixed and (b) the monster-count slashed by at least half. i'm normally fine with battling off epic hordes of monsters in big maps but this one REALLY DOESN'T NEED THAT MANY!! the atmosphere, design & detail are that strong it doesn't need to turn to hard relentless combat to justify its existence, and in doing so it just hampers it

(i played on normal btw) 

i'm not saying it should be completely bereft of challenges - it just maybe needed to save them until late on 

Exactly the same things happened to me (slope jump to GK at entrance, trick jump into exit etc.), which made the map really really annoying. When I replayed it, I took the "correct" routes, but even then, your other criticisms apply. I also agree that the map looks and feels amazing, but that doesn't make up for the shitty gameplay. 

I guess i mostly agree with above three posts... but (a couple of death pits aside) gameplay was good. The first time through, i was just amazed by the awesome landscapes and multiple route choices... i never perservered trying to find a 'correct' route - realising there really wasn't one - and had a ball.

... The second time, hmphh. Novelty wasn't so great and I got shitty shitty bored with dieing/reloading after returning with the key; down, past the two fiends, the devilish scrag ambush, and the board traversal with an ogre lobbing grenades at you. That bit sucked hard.

But kudos for the amazing open architecture and landscapes. Imho, possibly the best of any Q1 map i've seen. 

and I got shitty shitty bored with dieing/reloading after returning with the key; down, past the two fiends, the devilish scrag ambush, and the board traversal with an ogre lobbing grenades at you. That bit sucked hard.

haha. yes. especially so when you only have grenades, ~40 health & no armor going into it :/

considered releasing the source orl? ;) 

Well, I certainly was expecting a few comments criticizing that the map is too hard when I first released it, but I wasn't expecting it to really frustrate and aggravate players to the point where they quit out of rage.

When I, and my playtesters confirmed that easy skill was easy, and then come to find out that many players insist its too hard and quit out of desperation, that makes me feel that I haven't done my job to give players a fun and challenging experience.

I'm gonna have to really re-think my gameplay strategy for any future maps I build, as I see that what I have done with this map, is not adequate.

As for releasing the source, I certainly have no trouble doing that, but I'm just curious as to why. :) Would you plan on looking at the map to see how it was built, or perhaps did you want to change it so its more suited to your skill level? 

Easy skill certainly isn't easy here. But it also isn't overkill.
There shouldn't be much frustration when you use a careful approach. So the frustration level depends on the style of play.
I thought there wasn't much difference between the 3 skill settings. You just added some monsters to normal and hard skill so there were not many surprises for someone who already played on easy.
I was happy with the easy skill setup you have done but you should listen to the voice of the majority and reduce monster count together with replacing some of the tougher monsters.
About the apparent lack of ammo. There was enough ammo independent from the path you chose. You just need to use it right. This map requires more GL usage all the way through.
I often see that people refuse to use grenades and after they get short of nails and shells they meet a shambler and complain. 

When I, and my playtesters confirmed that easy skill was easy

hey now... i don't mean to be a dick, but i don't know how you got that from my emails. :(

I often see that people refuse to use grenades and after they get short of nails and shells they meet a shambler and complain.

i've seen this same behaviour with nails and it drives me crazy! i think i will make a map one day with no shells and all just out of spite. :P 

necros all maps from you are a bless from the gods! 

I was under the same impression, somewhat. 

Isn't the Shambler more resilient against attacks with explosives? 

I'm gonna have to really re-think my gameplay strategy for any future maps I build, as I see that what I have done with this map, is not adequate.

to be fair, it's all map dependent. tough relentless hordey gameplay with 'filler' monsters around every corner suits certain maps more than others. here you have a map characterised by fiddly, broken terrain, eerie atmosphere, lava and jump puzzles - you want the player to appreciate these aspects and take them all in, which just becomes impossible with the sheer volume of monsters in it and actually detracts from the overall feel.

i remember a recentish map from hrimfaxi called 'for love of evil' - that was tough, i must have died at least as many times on that as i did on this; but that was never frustrating. it's kind of hard to explain the difference; but the main location where i kept dying on that was in a big flat-floored arena where i had freedom to move about, dodge, retreat & manoeuvre in such a way that i could use grenades against fiends. when i got beaten i considered it a fair beating. but your map isn't like that... even with twice the ammo it has now, it would certainly be easier but it would still be annoying because there just isn't enough 'fight space' to be able to enjoy the combat in most situations

for what its worth i thought the end battle was decent - end battles are supposed to be tough as nails - but i would have probably appreciated it more if the rest of the map didn't feel like one giant end battle :)

i wouldn't want your next release to be easy off the back of this criticism. i don't think it is as black & white a matter as being 'too easy' or 'too hard' or using terms such as 'skill level' - as i detailed above i've played maps that have taken me longer than this and maps where i have died more than this and still managed to enjoy them, but this just frustrating more than anything.

hope that goes some way towards explaining my thoughts. i asked about the source because yes, i wouldn't mind repopulating it to make it more enjoyable, adopting more of a 'less is more' approach, but also (completely changing the subject here) because i was curious to try decking it out with hi-res textures, which i think it would be quite suited to with the level of detail. not guaranteeing i'd be successful in that aim but it's worthy of the effort :) 

hey now... i don't mean to be a dick, but i don't know how you got that from my emails. :(

Perhaps I misinterpreted something you said :)

I also don't quite understand the refusal of using grenades. They are powerful and useful in most situations, why use them as a last resort?

And for those interested, here is the map source and wad :) http://qrf.mine.nu/~orl/misc/oms2.7z 

the way it seems to me is that some players classify the GL and even the RL in some cases alongside the LG-- as either utility weapons for specific cases (zombies or packs of weak monsters) or last ditch weapons for powerful monsters (mostly vores).
players will shy away from the GL even more because of it's fickle nature.

grenade damage is never guaranteed and depending on the skill of the player can drop to below 50% (more the half the grenades miss). or even if you're just unlucky and the ai decided to turn a little bit.

i think that's why i see players even favour the SSG over nails because the shotguns are the pinnacle of guaranteed damage. 

I use the GL as much as possible, but then again I try to play making sure I have a basic amount of each of shells, nails and rockets at any given time, switching to other weapons when ammo falls low in one of those. 

re grenades.

but I'm not crazy about it. I'll pull em out intermittently and I'll use it more if I'm running real short on shells/nails.

I think the criticism is a bit harsh regarding the skill. the route issues are a legitimate complaint. the cave secret is fucked. these are legitimate complaints.

I played on normal and found it to be hard and unfair, but beatable. the cable car situation took me a couple tries, and the end only took one try.

keep in mind I often play on hard... but also keep in mind I hadn't played quake for months (discounting red slammer).

I think it has a lot to do with being very careful in this one. 

If you could enlighten me, what is the initial complaint regarding the routes?

And as for the cave secret, there is a small ledge to the left of the secret cave opening that you have to land on, and use it to jump inside the hole. It is a bit hard to see, but its there. 

i actually took a screenshot:

http://isoterra.co.uk/images/orl.jpg

you can climb up & slope-jump up to that ledge on the left, which screws up the progression. now shortcuts are obviously liable to screw up progression but this one i (and apparently others) took completely unintentionally (i am no 1337 speedrunner..) as it just looked like a path you had a climb up - i didn't notice the underwater cave until afterwards

that and making the final room visible from earlier on in the map.. caused me to find my way down there prematurely 

I played on normal and found it to be hard and unfair, but beatable. the cable car situation took me a couple tries, and the end only took one try.

snap.. i never had to resort to cheating to beat it. just shitloads of quickloads, which took much of the fun out of it and made it more of a chore. i think that's valid criticism 

Even though I did jump up there as well, it was fairly obvious this wasn't the right way to go, as there's a bit too much slope-jumping and engine-climbing involved - thus I jumped back down immediately. The actual tunnel to get inside the building is clearly visible from below when you approach the area.

I also tried to reach the final room once by jumping, thinking it might be a secret, but at the same I realized the jump was too hard to be an intentional route (that's why I quicksaved before). 

sorry, i'm fresh out of medals :P 

Honestly map have a very very nice build but gameplay was kind of disappointing...

The final area is those kinds of things that is impossible in nightmare, lots of monsters and few space to move!

:(

The rest is awesome!!! 

 

Hey Orl, I really liked this map.

The gameplay was really brutal; I played on easy, and it was one of the hardest quake experiences I can remember :-). It was probably harder than it should have been for me because I didn't find the GL, and so I had a shortage of nails/shells. If I'm not mistaken, there's no way to return to the starting area, so maybe it would have been good to have another GL located later in the map in case the player misses the first one.

Anyways, the architecture and mood were top notch! Thanks for the awesome release. 

Masses of detail here - lot of time has been spent.

I'll list my criticisms, I mean them constructively :)

Not enough resources. It'd be nice if more health / ammo had spawned, or just been there to find. The combat wasn't so difficult, but trying to axe hellknights made it so.

Could have been more Shamblers, and more knights replacing the Hellknights. I mean a wider / more balanced monster palette.

No lava sounds?

I agree with otp about the void sky, but I might have suggested a completely custom sky so that the trees didn't all finish at the same height.

The end fight could have been better yeah, stuff to hide behind or more pacing to the monster spawns instead of just chucking them all at the player in two waves.

Vores could have been a bit more effective in the big open areas, sniping from vantage points - which could have justified a RL inclusion.

I get the impression you collected every secret while playtesting - I got the poison one only, without it the final fight wouldn't have been much fun.

Would have been good to have a message at the start of the button hunt to tell me what I was doing. Nothing complicated, the same one on the grates would have done the trick.

There was some fiddly brushwork that would have caused issues - I remember the efrags problem you were having. There was also a lot of nice detail though.

Climbing around on stuff was a nice pace breaker to the fighting.

A few traps would have been nice - just a couple of spikers or a crusher somewhere could have replaced one of the fights... saving the player some ammo :)

Architecture was well built and evocative all the way through, a major improvement on your previous maps, not that they were bad mind you.

I kept thinking the podium in the center of the open area near the key door could have a had a free powerup on it, like a ROS. The player would be able to use it whenever they wanted, introducing a temptation there. At least for the first play through.