I think sock's recent playing attempts can be pretty instructive to all of us in showing how "hardcore" we have become, perhaps too much. I totally agree with his assessment that Moldy Tower is the best out of the maps he's played recently in terms of what to play; if a person not used to modern Q1SP wanted something to play the first thing I'd say is The Living End/Elder World Waystation (Necros seems to strike an excellent balance between the tendencies manifest in modern Q1SP without going too far in any one direction).

Anyway, it prompts the question of are we just making Q1SPs for people who've already played a thousand of 'em, or do we want to appeal to a wider audience. 

I doubt it. 

There sure is. How else could one explain how this map was downloaded more than 200 times from Quaddicted (even though it's officially on Hrim's site). 

Good point. We often seem to forget how to use the difficulty settings properly - not subtle nuances but noticable changes. And it probably wouldn't hurt either to tone down the monster count on regular-sized maps in favor of well thought out encounters and environments that work together with AI and physics. 

Is There A Wider Audience Though? I doubt it.
Most PC gamers i know are so hardcore/pre-programmed, they just laugh at the idea of Q1. I laugh at most modern games :>. I just finished reading that bioshock guy's essay talking up Doom2, and it's all pretty spot-on. The fact no-one's really articulated these ideas for so long is kind-of symptomatic of the lack of analysis? that the industry has. Or the dominance of the industry by raw dollars.. or whatever.

And it probably wouldn't hurt either to tone down the monster count on regular-sized maps
Yeah... If you're thinking about any sort of audience wider than func, skill 0 should be very easy, and it should be the default. But the game industry was a little different back then, laugh. Our apple person for quakespasm.. first thing they said was "the mouse is broken". S - "Oh yeah... '+mlook'" 

Most PC gamers i know are so hardcore/pre-programmed, they just laugh at the idea of Q1. I laugh at most modern games :>

I also know alot of people that are 'hardcore' and complete stuff on harder skill levels but that is the point of skill levels. If you initially find something too easy or too difficult then you change skill level. I think it is better for people to complete a level and have a rewarding experience than get frustrated and die alot. This is where the industry is moving towards, it is crazy the amount of people that give up before the end of a game and that situation should change. 

Has been on a crusade for quite a while combating 'abusively difficult' gameplay in Q1SP.

I tend to ask a question to myself now - how few monsters can I make this fun with? 

I agree with everything said here.I think of like Koohoo or Nastrond though - even on hard those maps are pretty easy. and that's okay, because that is their style and sometimes I like to play those more spacious, atmospheric maps.

But other days I want to play StarkMon or whatever, a map where normal is hard, hard is nightmarish, and nightmare is insane.

I feel like it's like music - some people want to listen to like, Hammers of Misfortune, and others want to listen to like, Fukpig or something.

they can choose which concert to go to for themselves.

that's a shitty analogy. 

THANK YOU!

Finally someone here realises that maps are becoming too hard... 

i think it's great to have someone like sock who isn't a stranger to the community yet hasn't been playing q1sp.
it gives a fresh view on everything. 

Are you considering making anything in Quake?

And yeah, it's nice to hear a fresh viewpoint from a similar standpoint.

It's too easy to make stuff completely inaccessible, partly because of the size of the community, but mainly because the only way to get stuff really done is shut down on distractions and bury yourself in it.

So the original idea gets lost - the player and mapper are both supposed to have fun. 

That.s all 

I just finished reading that bioshock guy's essay talking up Doom2, and it's all pretty spot-on.

What essay is that? Sounds interesting. 

http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=68 

 

I have been meaning to play Q1SP maps for sometime but never got around to getting Q1 again. What with the recent steam midweek madness I thought I would take a trip down memory lane and play some old classic Q1.

The thing I find the most shocking is how everyone has forgotten what skill levels actually mean. There are 4 skill levels available and they should be a well thought out progression with noticeable differences like AI, health and pickups in different places.

I am really tempted to make a Q1SP but I am short on time at the moment and just happy to play Q1 and give my rather cranky feedback instead! :P 

Well, seems to have caused some re-evaluations on difficulties.

Did you ever play the classic mods? Zerstorer, Insomnia, OUM, Nehahra etc.

Although Nehahra is a big spike in difficulty - the Ai is very fast and pretty close to being clever. 

The actual essay is here
http://vectorpoem.com/news/?p=74 

any debate about it becoming 'too hard' is pretty much invalid because well, there's a clue in the name. so i'm assuming it's skill 1 people are complaining about, in which case, fair cop 

Lots of good comments from everybody!
And lots of good points from Sock.
I'm sure everybody can learn from it.

Maybe I/we have become so used to hard combat that we forget to make a bigger difference between normal and hard skill levels.

Anyway it has been interesting to read Socks comments on the different maps he has played recently! 

Or "beyond nightmare", if you have a mod that has this.

Believe it or not, it's possible to be hard without being abusive. If you ever need convincing of this, just play through e2m5rmx on skill 2... 

You do know that rj made e2m5rmx himself, right? 

I think Lardarse knows a couple of things. Apart from that, I think abusive can't be reinterpreted to mean "good". Abusive is bad.

I didn't find For Love of Evil abusive though, by and large. 

i was drunk when i posted that, clearly.

i think what i was trying to get across was that if people want to make their maps excessively difficult so only the true elite can beat them, then all the power to them. providing they keep this to skill 2 & use skills 1/0 to cater for the more casual player then this shouldn't be a point of criticism

(this is coming from someone who generally plays on skill 1) 

i did enjoy this map. i died loads, but never in an annoying way. if that makes sense