@Fern, You can play the beginning of the start map in stealth mode but you need to find some of the runes first! 

Just played the start and first map and I have to say hats off to you on the visuals and overall polish. Fantastic architecture with a believable real-world feel and (probably) not a texture or light out of place. Amazing work.

The new models and textures were also very well done. It feels new but nothing is at odds with what was already there from Quake.

Secrets are fantastic. I've always been a fan of kind of epic secrets that require lots of jumping around, but I must say I like button hunting too. There was plenty of both! I only found 3 secrets on the start map, but I managed to find 7 on the e1m1 based map.

With regard to the gameplay, it does feel like there is a bit too much knight combat and not much variety at the moment, but I guess if you stealth through the levels it is not such a big deal.

I enjoyed the stealth during the tutorial, though I had some problems killing the ogre one time and couldn't seem to kill him without waking him up. I think it was just me being shit. I wanted to try the next mission (s1m1) using stealth, but didn't spot the amulet at the start and just went off without it. I think you should try and draw the attention of the player to it a little more, or move the alcove to a more obvious position. I play in 1920x1200 and still didn't spot it and just walked forward past it. I thought maybe I would find the amulet partway through the mission again.

Sorry I didn't record a demo. I will when I play s1m2 later.

By the way, you used radiant? Which version? Also, how much time did you spend on this? It's incredibly polished. Did you find it much easier making Q1 maps than Q3 maps or maps for other games? 

I like the enemy AI changes. It's pretty scary the way stuff can chase after you so effectively now. The first time I woke up the fiend at the beginning of the start map and it just walked round to get me was a big surprise.

Oh, and the big knight model you made for that large room in the start map is awesome. I hope he will crop up as an enemy in the final version! 

Not sure if Quakespasm or stupidity, I got lost on the start map. http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/its-demo1e-start-normal-firstrun-Spirit.dem.7z

Please test Quakespasm for future releases. Fitzquake is Windows only, Quakespasm is Win, Mac and Linux. It is a fork of Fitz, so changes should be minor. And/or DirectQ. 

Minor criticism on the enemy models would be that their shoulders are kinda stiff and weird.

Apart from that, my lower jaw is somewhere between my legs. 

I'm envious. I wish I could get mine down there! (not between your legs...) But yes, seriously awesome looking maps. 

With regard to the gameplay, it does feel like there is a bit too much knight combat and not much variety at the moment
I am not a fan of monster variety for the sake of variety. The start map is a humanoid location and I want to keep the style consistent with units that would be there. The bonus maps s1m1 and s1m2 are very close to their original monster setup and when I introduce demons, vorns and shamblers I want them to have a big impact on the player. I really dislike mixing Quake styles (tech next to medieval) it totally breaks the immersion for me and with clever level design not necessary.

Secrets are fantastic. I've always been a fan of kind of epic secrets that require lots of jumping around, but I must say I like button hunting too.
I think every mapper has their own style of secrets and they always stick to that format regardless of how many maps they make. I have seen texture alignment, buttons, dexterity, show and tell and hidden routes but rarely do mappers use them all. Personally I like to use show and tell, where I show the player a prize and then tell them if they want it find the trigger close by. I would like to add that the secrets in my maps are designed for players that like to hunt for treasure, they are not necessary for completing the map.

I wanted to try the next mission (s1m1) using stealth, but didn't spot the amulet at the start and just went off without it.
The amulet alcove fades on a trigger brush (just infront of the spawn) and there is a sound played when it is available. I assumed the player would change/check skill level and look around first before running off.

By the way, you used radiant? Which version? Also, how much time did you spend on this? It's incredibly polished. Did you find it much easier making Q1 maps than Q3 maps or maps for other games?
I use SD radiant 1.3.8 with a special entity and shader file. I can't run any radiant editor beyond 1.4 because they never work on my laptop. (intel chip set) I don't use WC because it feels old fashioned with its crazy amount of 2D windows. I love the floating window arrangement of radiant and prefer having one large 2D window instead.

Comparing Q1 and Q3 mapping is difficult because Q3 mapping is very simplistic with only a DM entity set. I prefer Q1 mapping because of the QuakeC scripting, is just gorgeous to play with. If I want a new feature I just write the QC for it, setup the entity and it is done. I am no longer limited by the original entity set.

Most of the polish in my maps is from making sure I have the right texture for the right brushwork. When level design and art are in perfect harmony with each other, the environment always becomes much more consistent. 

I like the enemy AI changes. It's pretty scary the way stuff can chase after you so effectively now. The first time I woke up the fiend at the beginning of the start map and it just walked round to get me was a big surprise.
I probably spent over 50% of my time coding the AI to path around and find the player. There are still plenty of areas they have problems with, but eventually they should find the player. I specially set up the demon to demonstrate the pathing to the player. if the player shoots him, he will attack and then path. If he is too far away, he will path and depending on where the player is the demon will open locked door. (he has a pocket full of keys!) There is a special moments like this in every map to show off a certain AI feature.

Please test Quakespasm for future releases. Fitzquake is Windows only, Quakespasm is Win, Mac and Linux. It is a fork of Fitz, so changes should be minor. And/or DirectQ.
Sorry spirit I have no interest in testing my maps with Quakespasm. If it works for people, then bonus, but I find the engine too limited and rigid with the Quake specification and when I asked for help with trying to fix things, no one was interested. 

@spirit, damn that stupid vault button!?! grrr :( 

I suppose one reason why I was suggesting to split the poison bolts into a secondary set for infighting is that there was nothing to tell me they caused it.

...until I looked at the stealth stats.

Another option might be to make all bolts capable of causing infighting.

I saw the fog change when the amulet was disabled, and heard the sound of it recharging. What I was suggesting was a 'stealth broken' sound - an instant aural identifier that you're discovered and need to escape.

Yes, the other effects do that, but they can't be too in the player's face because they're constant. Can't think of a good example for this.

As for treasure, in the Altar of Storms it gave an armour bonus per 25 coins collected and had some secrets / messages built in as well. Drake had both coins and gems, being armour and health bonuses for enough collected, respectively.

Quake players tend to be pack rats, which is tied into the whole secret hunting thing.

Probably a complete tangent from the serious work of getting a decent stealth game set up and working as good as it already is though. 

I thought you'd used frik waypoints for the AI, but there's no .way files... 

One thing I ditched in ruins was that coins and such originally counted for secrets.
I had inflated normal secrets to count for 10 points and coins counted for 1 each so that at the end you could see if you got all the coins and secrets.
I ended up ditching it though because there was no way to tell if you missed 1 secret or 10 coins. :(
But yeah, I LOVE collecting stuff like that when I play. Kind of obsessive actually... made playing Painkiller hard for me as it would annoy me when vases were broken in combat and I couldn't pick up the coins. :P 

of the gold in Castle Wolfenstein.

'Why's it there!?!?!'
'...to be collected'

:) 

What might be cool is that, since the explanation is that the amulet is the thing destroying the items... maybe after it absorbs enough items you get a free 'vanish' one-time ability. 

I thought you'd used frik waypoints for the AI, but there's no .way files

I wrote my own version in QC and if you turn on 'dev mode' and restart any of the maps you will see a bunch of rotating cubes everywhere with letters on them.

* There are 4 basic types of node as follows:

* Regular nodes can only have two routes, forward and back. They usually connect rooms together and allow AI to follow a path.

* Switch nodes are like regular nodes except they offer a third route which the AI can switch too. Useful for doors or alternative paths.

* Orphan nodes are used to feed AI back into the node network and are often positioned in dead ends or sections where the AI needs to escape from but not enter. (like water/slime sections)

* Idle nodes are only used after combat for locations where the AI will hang out and make sure the player is still not lurking around. They are useful for thinning out the crowd if a lot of AI are trying to return to what they were doing before.

Most nodes types can have additional functions assigned to them which can be enabled/disabled by other trigger events.

* Disabled, the AI will ignore this route (Generally should be on switches so they can easily ignore the third route) They appear as brown nodes visually.

* Jump, a destination location for a monster to jump at, only works if another node has a target pointing at it. (has a blue marker above the node)

* Range, lets the AI know this is a good location for range attacks and will use this based on skill level percentages. A good thing for AI on ledges because it stops them running around in circles trapped. (has a blue marker above the node)

* Blind, will not do any sight checks while traveling to next node, useful for auto opening doors and other triggers. (the node skin is blue when active)

* Flowreset, makes the AI check if it is going in the right direction by re-checking which routes are the best way to go. (the node skin is pink)

* Volumes, will make yes/no decisions based on XYZ volumes if they should go a certain direction. Useful for fine tuning the node network and making sure AI get to the player faster by ignoring large parts of the map. (has a white marker above the node)

You can see how the nodes are linked together by switching on 'notarget' and touching each node. It will change the skin of all attached nodes around it and draw a letter showing its relationship.

Hope that helps :) 

I certainly like the idea of collecting stuff, but what the player is collecting should be worth something. The MOD already has a stat showing how much was destroyed by the amulet.

What might be cool is that, since the explanation is that the amulet is the thing destroying the items... maybe after it absorbs enough items you get a free 'vanish' one-time ability.

Yeah I really like this idea, it would be cool to reward the stealth player with something useful after destroying so many items. I will add that to my new list :) 

Some screenshots of the node network
s1m2 Nodes s1m2 Nodes
s1m1 Nodes s1m1 Nodes Editor 

http://www.suspenlute.com/fr3ns1m1.zip 

http://www.suspenlute.com/stuff/fr3ns1m1.zip 

Two demos at http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/preach-shadows.zip

The first demo is a bit awful tbh, when I entered the start map I'd seen all the previews so I was expecting to sneak straight away, when actually you're just meant to play it straight. So I'd fast forward all the way through to the amulet, where the training basically went ok. There follow two attempts at s1m1, when I get cornered and killed. The next play through I forgot to record, but I went for pure backstabbing everything and managed to finish.

The second demo is a play through s2m2 which goes quite well.

I'd suggest that the sound cues when the amulet protection is gone need more differentiation. At the moment you get a sound cue when the amulet starts recharging, and one when it finishes - but both play the same sound. I think they need to be audibly different, and also a third cue needs to be added - for when a recharging fails because you've been spotted again. 

To check it out in-engine yet, but it seems your AI system bears a lot of similarity to the frikbot system - even down to node types, with yours being focused on stealth and SP obviously.

My internet is patchy right now so can't link to the frikbot waypoint definitions, but it might be interesting to give it a look. 

@Fern, thank you very much for the demo's, starting out on hard skill reminded me of demo's by negke where he was trying to get into the front door s1m1. You did find the upper balcony shortcut at one point but never went back. I am not sure if the training section in the start map should be more so everyone understand more stealth concepts or to let players trial and error and die a lot.

@preach, damn that stupid vault button, totally ruins this demo. :( It was unfortunate you found so many places where the AI did stupid things. The one thing that did worry me was how you used poison bolts on buttons, not sure how to get across to the player they are valuable and not easy to find.

The sound cues for the amulet are certainly not good because they use existing sounds which I think confuses so many people. I think new sounds will have to be created and probably on all stages of the amulet being disabled/enabled. 

...this weekend just because I feel like it 

supposing you DID need sounds, do you have a list specifically of what's "missing" i.e. which events currently use stock sounds and would be better off with original sounds? 

I do not read other replies here so I don't spoil it for myself. is some button missing for me due to a (quakespasm) bug or is it a general problem with it? if I should look harder please give me a rough hint.