Creativity needs huge spaces to grow... Creativity in a small space is limited, so boosting up engine limits allow mappers to create much more creative maps... Take just the example of a tree: it can grow very easily if unconstrained due to "nature exhuberant creativity". Put the same tree into a small flower-pot, and never it can grow as it should...
I think that creativity works like this... but I understand your point of view metlslime, with constraints, mappers have to "use their brain" much more than if they are unconstrained... And what about brainstorming without constraints ?? It can give very good results, isn't it ?? 

About Quake not running on Mac OSX.. do you mean the original code, or... what exactly? Because I run this port: http://macglquake.sourceforge.net/ and all I have to do is copy the ID1 dir from my PC Quake cd. 

 

 

but wouldn't that just encourage mappers to release maps that go over the limits?

Firstly, I'm not talking about architectural limits (like map boundaries and stuff) - just increased edict counts, stop packet overflow and stuff.

Well I suppose this is just a request to make my new map playable in FQ, I guess. Otherwise I'll have to say it's DarkPlaces only, which might not go down too well, round here. :( 

you could make a map that's compatible with ALL engines, even if it looks better in some :) 

Please will everyone that seems to be able to get the latest DarkPlaces running, tell me if they experience what I'm experiencing:

With all versions after the 21may04 version (inclusing the latest Oct 6th version), the screen seemingly jerks and stutters at about 2 FPS, even if the FPS counter says "60 fps". What's more it feels like really, really bad lag rather than a low rendering framerate, almost as if I'm playing online on a 56k, but not quite. (I'm never online btw.)

Btw - I have *all* dynamic lighting features turned off; even dlights like the rocket glow turn the game into a 1 FPS slideshow.

With the May 21 build, it's silky-smooth again.

My system: Dell Inspiron 8200 laptop, 1.5GHz, 512MB RAM, GeForce4 440 GO.

I use this command line:

C:\QUAKE\darkplaces.exe -nocdaudio -novorbis -nojoy -noudp -noipx -noserial -nolan -sndspeed 11025 +exec bdw.cfg +skill 2 +developer 1 +map start

My vid drivers are up-to-date, and in any case, I don't feel I should have to worry about my graphics hardware just *to play Quake*.

Sorry, I don't want to turn this thread into a DarkPlaces tech support forum, but I've had no luck solving this problem using other channels of enquiry. 

... it was a kind of comparison... I know that trees don'r make quake level... silly guy ;P 

honestly, i don't understand the point of keeping limits in.
and i, personally, will make my maps regardless if they are playable in all engines or not. i try to get them to work in all of them, but if they can't i won't redesign a whole map just for that.

i think fixing edict limits is actually more for players who use your engine than for mappers. because then people will be able to use your engine instead of another one when they'd prefer to use yours. 

because then people will be able to use your engine instead of another one when they'd prefer to use yours.

metl, read this. A Lot. Print it out and tape it to your fridge door. Spraypaint it on the road outside your apartment building. And stop acting like such a stuck-up ass. 

i, personally, will make my maps regardless if they are playable in all engines or not. i try to get them to work in all of them, but if they can't i won't redesign a whole map just for that.

Yes. I made Bastion 2 with the idea that it will have to use a raised-edict engine. The map is basically done now, and I can't really re-design it so that it will play in standard engines sadly :( 

DarkPlaces has always worked smoothly on my system, performance wise. Some Quake entities get messed up, like the telefrag sequence at the beginning of Space God's Rune. I have been meaning to report this to LordHavoc as he has requested.

If you are reading this, Good Sir, often times the mapper is relunctant to do this because he is uncertain if it is a bug or if it is just his own personal ignorance on how the engine is intended to perform if tweaked correctly (I'm absolutely shameless in my ignorance, so we have communicated a few times previously). 

Turns out it was simply a matter of setting gl_finish "1", which has a huge benefit on my system (but others get more performance with gl_finish "0" apparently). Try both to see what works best with you. 

In GA, you mentioned the blood-splatter stainmaps not clearing on level reload. Try setting cl_stainmapsclearonload "1". Also, you could try an alternative effect, which is decals, which I find quite cool: turn stainmaps off (cl_stainmaps "0") and use cl_decals "1". Decals fade with time as well, which I prefer.

Also, you do have limited control of stuff like this in the in-game menu, but it will be nice when all the cvars are documented ^_^ 

I think limits create the necessary context for creativity

Im not sure this logic regarding limits makes sense to me. Surely it should be up to the artist[mapper] themselves to exercise their creative right to freedom to create whatever they want.

Applying your line of thought to other media, for example, we would say all books should be under 200 pages, or all films under 2 hours.
Which just seems plain wrong to me. :/ 

of your medium. For example, in sculpture, you have to work with the grain of the rock or else you are not going to get anywhere.

I think Metlsime's concern may have to do with the Universality of Quake. It is hard to imagine any PC that it can't play on (maybe someone somewhere still maintains a 286/32). As long as the game that is being played is essentially Quake than it makes sense to me as well that the lower end is maintained.

The DP approach is apt for Total Conversions, as is Quake Fusion. Many mappers do not really understand what these custom engines are about and why anyone would bother with them.

For me, these engines represent a potential to reach an ambition of mine and that is to make a mod that is not dependent on the end user having to buy anything including the gaming engine. 

I don't know how to quote things, so:

"I think limits create the necessary context for creativity."

Just wanted to say: I couldn't agree more with that. I discussed that topic so much with aardappel and headshot, and it always came down to that. I think the more freedom you have, the less creative you are. 

If I can just cut through all the posturing and fannying around for a minute, all I am suggesting (along with Necros, and others I'm sure) is that metlslime goes in and bumps up a few of the numbers like MAX_EDICTS and such, so that we can go ahead and make the sort of 300 monster maps which I know you guys all love ;)

In Bastion I had to resort to all manner of complicated QC "hacks" to trick the engine into loading a 300+ monster map with all the necessary pickups items etc. to dispatch said beasties. Now, I guess I could resort to doing this again in my new map, but it would be nice (and would make mapping much easier) if I didn't have to worry about this so much. 

that modyifing an engine to support more monsters, etc. for Kinn's next map sounds like a good idea. I mean, it should be worth it. 

Additionally, this would benefit a lot of existing maps; take czg07c for example - a large map, but not what you would call ridiculously large by any means - in Hard I still often reached the edict limit and crashed out of the game. 

"I think limits create the necessary context for creativity."

this is irrelevant. the maps will be made regardless. this is so players who like fitzquake can play those maps on their engine of choice, not be forced to use another engine. 

The thing i said about creativity is something i really think is true, and i hope most people realize someday. But, that isn't my actual reason for resisting these suggestions.

The actual reason is, compatibility. I don't like maps that require one specific engine, websites that only work in one browser, etc. I think it's much better if maps and engines were built to a standard. That way each map could run in any engine and each engine could run any map. When a map or engine requires something extra, hopefully that extra thing is also standardized. Lit files are a good example of a standard. "More edicts" is a good example of no standard, since each engine that bumps max_edicts will pick arbitrarily what the new maximum should be.

uwf, you compare this issue to filmmakers having the freedom to make films longer than 2 hours. Well, what about the freedom to release DVDs that only work in a few, special DVD players? I think that's a closer analogy. 

the standard for the edict limit is 2048.
now, everyone change your code to reflect this.
;) 

The actual reason is, compatibility. I don't like maps that require one specific engine, websites that only work in one browser, etc. I think it's much better if maps and engines were built to a standard.

Amen 

The man is not afraid to weld the power or grab the reins. I like his style!

Now it is time to go over QuakeSrc and Inside3D and tell them, 'listen up! The new edict limit is 2048. Now get to it!'