'Play it properly' was good advice. Just finished e1m1 (sorry, no demo) and was totally immersed in the evil sneaky place you've created. And I looked up a lot. Following all the vertical light beams, details and particle effects you'd carefully placed...

I played the stealth mode and liked it a lot.

I have a few gameplay suggestions - just some thoughts that occurred while playing most likely they're not relevant.

When losing the amulet's effect it'd be cool to have a smash or break sound, the fog colour was a bit subtle until I realised and started watching for it.

I didn't realise poison bolts could cause infighting until checking the impulse command for stealth rating. Once I had I wasted all my bolts on getting the regular guys to chop each other up and had none left for the enemy at the end. Maybe copy the poison bolt to a new colour and name, and make that the 'infighting' bolt? That way you can have a separate learning play instance for causing infighting. Probably won't fit in with your overall plan though.

The amulet destroying all the ammo was ok I guess... but here comes the least feasible idea. It might be nice to replace the ammo with treasure in stealth mode. Kind of like in Necros' last map or Drake. Just to give the player something to hunt for and collect. Some enemies could drop the stuff as well.

Anyway, a lot of fun, thanks.

Will record a demo of the next map. 

Is just my own random musings - the game caught my imagination :) 

To be honest I am only after the first play through demos because they will show exactly how the player views the level for the first time, which is by far the most valuable feedback. Otherwise it will just be a demo of someone knowing where they are going and knowing what to expect.

@ijed, Someone else suggested splitting the poison bottles into more gameplay functions but then it just gets more complex with multiple potions doing different things for different bolts. I tried to help with the poison bottles by putting them close to where you might need them (large health mobs). Sadly that did not work out too well and I have just the right saying for that ...

'you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink!'

When the amulet is disabled the fog changes colour and the quad wearing off sound file is played endlessly. Did you not hear it? Did you have the quake cd music going?

If armour and items are replaced with different items (gold coins for example) to collect what is the player suppose to do with them at the end of the map? 

doesn't have to be replaced with treasure, there could just be like a 'items destroyed' score. :)

I found that I was going out of my way to destroy as many items as possible without realizing it. 

The stealth stats screen (printed the console) records lot of wacky stuff, items destroyed, ghosts killed, zombie knockdowns and of course the usual stuff! :P 

heh, I admit I did not look to closely at it. :)
Was busy admiring brushwork. 

Man, these maps are really awesome. Just too much !

There's so much love and patience in this mod, it's incredible.

It's hard to believe Quake1 lives so much today, after all these years !

You guys rock ! 

http://www.suspenlute.com/stuff/fr3ns1m2e.zip

Also why does the amulet have to destroy weapons and ammo on contact? I think target-killing everything throughout the map as soon as you pick the amulet up would be less distracting and artificial. 

I can manually enable gl_texturemode 4, will this cause any negative effects?

Seems to be opengl when running under directq also 

@Fern, wow that is certainly a different way to play stealth! hehe The respawn sound you were hearing (in the demo) was the stealth alcoves, this is where you can hide and the AI will not see you if the amulet is working. Some mobs are setup as turrets and will not chase you until their health is lower. The wizards can be dealt with by the electric traps. The blue key door is a trap on stealth mode, use the stealth alcove to the side, it will allow you to avoid the ogre.


@yhe1, besides the textures looking blurry!?! :P
I'm a fan. I'd prefer them in gl_texturemode 3 tho ;} (Kinn 2012) 

...in my life

and i'd recommend using a different sound for the alcoves. 

I am being a total Daz because for some reason whatever engine I try (requiem, quakespasm-svn, sdl fitzquake, fitz085 in wine) I always get vanilla monsters and combat (books and everything works, so the progs.dat is loaded). Help!


yhe1: You do not want "GL", all engines mentioned here use OpenGL. You mean texture filtering: http://www.quaddicted.com/engines/software_vs_glquake#texture_filtering

sock rocks for setting it to pixels, looks so much nicer. 

FYI I did not read anything below the Installation part of the readme to avoid spoilers. If the information is hidden in there, well, meh. 

the start map is vanilla until you find the vault button :P 

@spirit, if you want to play the stealth mode you need to pick up the amulet. This item is freely available at the beginning of the bonus maps s1m1 and s1m2. It should be in an alcove next to the spawn.

To find the amulet in the start map you need to explore and find the shadow vault. Unfortunately the method for opening the shadow vault is awkward, just keep searching in the room outside the vault. Once you open the vault and complete the shadow training all the bonus maps are freely available. (linked portals)

When you complete one of the bonus maps (s1m1, s1m2) you are put back in the start map which will change depending on what silver door you open. The start map has plenty of routes, secrets and places to explore or get lost! :P 

@Fern, You can play the beginning of the start map in stealth mode but you need to find some of the runes first! 

Just played the start and first map and I have to say hats off to you on the visuals and overall polish. Fantastic architecture with a believable real-world feel and (probably) not a texture or light out of place. Amazing work.

The new models and textures were also very well done. It feels new but nothing is at odds with what was already there from Quake.

Secrets are fantastic. I've always been a fan of kind of epic secrets that require lots of jumping around, but I must say I like button hunting too. There was plenty of both! I only found 3 secrets on the start map, but I managed to find 7 on the e1m1 based map.

With regard to the gameplay, it does feel like there is a bit too much knight combat and not much variety at the moment, but I guess if you stealth through the levels it is not such a big deal.

I enjoyed the stealth during the tutorial, though I had some problems killing the ogre one time and couldn't seem to kill him without waking him up. I think it was just me being shit. I wanted to try the next mission (s1m1) using stealth, but didn't spot the amulet at the start and just went off without it. I think you should try and draw the attention of the player to it a little more, or move the alcove to a more obvious position. I play in 1920x1200 and still didn't spot it and just walked forward past it. I thought maybe I would find the amulet partway through the mission again.

Sorry I didn't record a demo. I will when I play s1m2 later.

By the way, you used radiant? Which version? Also, how much time did you spend on this? It's incredibly polished. Did you find it much easier making Q1 maps than Q3 maps or maps for other games? 

I like the enemy AI changes. It's pretty scary the way stuff can chase after you so effectively now. The first time I woke up the fiend at the beginning of the start map and it just walked round to get me was a big surprise.

Oh, and the big knight model you made for that large room in the start map is awesome. I hope he will crop up as an enemy in the final version! 

Not sure if Quakespasm or stupidity, I got lost on the start map. http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/its-demo1e-start-normal-firstrun-Spirit.dem.7z

Please test Quakespasm for future releases. Fitzquake is Windows only, Quakespasm is Win, Mac and Linux. It is a fork of Fitz, so changes should be minor. And/or DirectQ. 

Minor criticism on the enemy models would be that their shoulders are kinda stiff and weird.

Apart from that, my lower jaw is somewhere between my legs. 

I'm envious. I wish I could get mine down there! (not between your legs...) But yes, seriously awesome looking maps. 

With regard to the gameplay, it does feel like there is a bit too much knight combat and not much variety at the moment
I am not a fan of monster variety for the sake of variety. The start map is a humanoid location and I want to keep the style consistent with units that would be there. The bonus maps s1m1 and s1m2 are very close to their original monster setup and when I introduce demons, vorns and shamblers I want them to have a big impact on the player. I really dislike mixing Quake styles (tech next to medieval) it totally breaks the immersion for me and with clever level design not necessary.

Secrets are fantastic. I've always been a fan of kind of epic secrets that require lots of jumping around, but I must say I like button hunting too.
I think every mapper has their own style of secrets and they always stick to that format regardless of how many maps they make. I have seen texture alignment, buttons, dexterity, show and tell and hidden routes but rarely do mappers use them all. Personally I like to use show and tell, where I show the player a prize and then tell them if they want it find the trigger close by. I would like to add that the secrets in my maps are designed for players that like to hunt for treasure, they are not necessary for completing the map.

I wanted to try the next mission (s1m1) using stealth, but didn't spot the amulet at the start and just went off without it.
The amulet alcove fades on a trigger brush (just infront of the spawn) and there is a sound played when it is available. I assumed the player would change/check skill level and look around first before running off.

By the way, you used radiant? Which version? Also, how much time did you spend on this? It's incredibly polished. Did you find it much easier making Q1 maps than Q3 maps or maps for other games?
I use SD radiant 1.3.8 with a special entity and shader file. I can't run any radiant editor beyond 1.4 because they never work on my laptop. (intel chip set) I don't use WC because it feels old fashioned with its crazy amount of 2D windows. I love the floating window arrangement of radiant and prefer having one large 2D window instead.

Comparing Q1 and Q3 mapping is difficult because Q3 mapping is very simplistic with only a DM entity set. I prefer Q1 mapping because of the QuakeC scripting, is just gorgeous to play with. If I want a new feature I just write the QC for it, setup the entity and it is done. I am no longer limited by the original entity set.

Most of the polish in my maps is from making sure I have the right texture for the right brushwork. When level design and art are in perfect harmony with each other, the environment always becomes much more consistent. 

I like the enemy AI changes. It's pretty scary the way stuff can chase after you so effectively now. The first time I woke up the fiend at the beginning of the start map and it just walked round to get me was a big surprise.
I probably spent over 50% of my time coding the AI to path around and find the player. There are still plenty of areas they have problems with, but eventually they should find the player. I specially set up the demon to demonstrate the pathing to the player. if the player shoots him, he will attack and then path. If he is too far away, he will path and depending on where the player is the demon will open locked door. (he has a pocket full of keys!) There is a special moments like this in every map to show off a certain AI feature.

Please test Quakespasm for future releases. Fitzquake is Windows only, Quakespasm is Win, Mac and Linux. It is a fork of Fitz, so changes should be minor. And/or DirectQ.
Sorry spirit I have no interest in testing my maps with Quakespasm. If it works for people, then bonus, but I find the engine too limited and rigid with the Quake specification and when I asked for help with trying to fix things, no one was interested. 

@spirit, damn that stupid vault button!?! grrr :( 

I suppose one reason why I was suggesting to split the poison bolts into a secondary set for infighting is that there was nothing to tell me they caused it.

...until I looked at the stealth stats.

Another option might be to make all bolts capable of causing infighting.

I saw the fog change when the amulet was disabled, and heard the sound of it recharging. What I was suggesting was a 'stealth broken' sound - an instant aural identifier that you're discovered and need to escape.

Yes, the other effects do that, but they can't be too in the player's face because they're constant. Can't think of a good example for this.

As for treasure, in the Altar of Storms it gave an armour bonus per 25 coins collected and had some secrets / messages built in as well. Drake had both coins and gems, being armour and health bonuses for enough collected, respectively.

Quake players tend to be pack rats, which is tied into the whole secret hunting thing.

Probably a complete tangent from the serious work of getting a decent stealth game set up and working as good as it already is though.