https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFDyOrcqU98 apologies to Mazu, suffice to say his one was really good, I only died once due to carelessness. Also I forget to mention in my other post that Ukko's was a nice design but completely unplayable, not sure how that slipped through. 

It has been brought to my attention that Ukko's map apparently relies on the very familiar and time-honoured Quake tradition of retreating to earlier in the map to re-collect re-spawning supplies. Based on that information I will re-attempt it. 

challenging gameplay != unfair gameplay 

When i back into the keys on dumptrucks map, i can grab them. 

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DDb4eLiZOGU/XNXHgKtnsOI/AAAAAAAAAxM/kPb9JhU4yIwf0uXxUFnue1weD7qatCJywCLcBGAs/s1600/unknown.png

Pinchy: 1. Get worked up by peoples maps earlier in the set
2. Rush mine by running into the deepest and most defended part of the map
3. Die, skip
Ing-ing: 0. Play on higher difficulties even though clearly doesn't like challenge
Mclogenog: eh it's shambler

This apparently is directed at me, regarding my playthrough of this pack, and thus needs to be dealt with:

1. If anyone has a problem with someone giving criticism of a map, it's best to discuss it with them and talk about it. Something useful might actually come out of that. You know that I'm online on discord (and on here), feel free to do so.

2. Pinchy, if you watched my playthrough, you'd see that you are wrong on all counts:
A. I played through the entire set and did not get worked up by ANY maps, especially not gameplaywise, apart from UKKO's. So being well warmed up by mostly enjoying 10 or so maps actually put me in a positive mood for playing Quake.
B. Firstly I clearly did NOT rush into yours, I tried different tactics, explored carefully to avoid vores, hunted for secrets etc etc.
Secondly "the deepest and most defended part of map", where that is is NOT obvious to the player. You know it as the mapper, the first time player will not know it (although dropping down to the Shambler/water area looked the worst so I carefully avoided that).
C. I died repeatedly due to the excessive difficulty, lack of supplies, and lack of clarity about best options for the first time player, but I reloaded several times to try to progress with the map. That was NOT, despite the temptation, an insta-skip, I put the effort into persisting.

3. Ing-ing: I play on skill 2 BECAUSE I CLEARLY LIKE THE CHALLENGE, and because 95% of the time with non-speedmaps, that is the right level of challenge for my optimum enjoyment. As you will notice I played the entire pack on skill 2 and enjoyed almost all the maps - whether they were long or short, snipey or arenay, or whatever, in fact I mentioned that at least one was too easy for me. The only 2 I didn't manage were ones with weird gameplay mechanisms or ones that were highly unbalanced. If 95% of maps average out at spot on on skill 2, and 5% don't, then it's the 5% that are a problem, not the skill 2.

4. Mclonelong: Yes, it's Shambler. I play Quake for enjoyment, fun, challenge, appreciation of cool environments and atmospheres, exploring architecture etc etc. If those are good in a map, I'm going to praise it - like I do repeatedly. If some those aren't to my personal taste (like your toybox), I'm going to hold my hands up and say "It might be good but it ain't my taste". If some of those are just really badly done or dsyfunctional, I'm not going to avoid criticism, pretend it's all fine, and deceive mappers into thinking their map doesn't have flaws, I'm going to say as much. And if a map is too unpleasant to play in whatever way (whether it's a beautiful map with bad gameplay or the best Quake action in a fullbright box), I'm not going to keep going with it. That's it.


TL,DR: If someone is criticising your map, discuss it, consider it, refute it, instead of slagging off their gameplay. 

UKKO, I replayed your map with the prior knowledge that the nails at the start infinitely respawn. Like this it was fine, fun and easy to get through although constantly returning to the start was tedious. Very nice design but an unnecessary gameplay mechanism. 

I actually don't have a map in the pack. 

I was only talking about 195 - It seemed really insane for you to push in further after seeing the demon on one side then hell knights on the other in a narrow space. The vore behind is definitely not a grenade launcher ';,,;'

Also I just assumed that everyone who made maps recently was in both the actively used discord channels. My reply was there only because that's where the video was posted

I build for all difficulties in my maps (including speedmaps) the best I can within the time given. This took some training during the years I built Doom maps. If the map is too hard, lower skill levels are always available 

If I'm remembering correctly, the comments were regarding sm195 (or maybe 196), not JamX. And yes, constructive critique is good, but sometimes your evaluations (especially with speedmaps, where the quality is spotty) can come off sounding impatient and cynical. Of course maps also need to earn patience, especially with so many maps being made. You also don't owe anyone a complete playthrough with feedback.

My comment on discord, quoted above, was probably too short to be clear. My point was "don't take it personally" and also that, yes, you have your reputation as a jaded player with specific tastes. I understood (and got a chuckle out of) you briefly trying toybox on your stream; it's a very weird approach to quake, and I knew many folks who like traditional gameplay and aesthetics wouldn't dig it, or might even hate it.

In general, I'm in favor or quake levels being able to take all sorts of strange forms. I think the Doom mod scene's variety is something worth aspiring to. Maybe the difficulty, as individual mapper styles develop, is that it creates an inconsistent, clashing-flavor experience across a map pack. 

When i load the start map in quakespasm it says
"couldn't load sound/break/pd_metal1"

and in quakespasm-spiked it says:
"no extension for sound/break/pd_metal1"
"no extension for break/pd_metal1"
"couldn't load sound/break/pd_metal1"

so... i think (maybe) the start map is trying to load a file named "pd_metal1" instead of "pd_metal1.wav"

is this bug happening with anyone else? 

seems like a mistake on the mapper's part not a bug per se. 

Thank you! 

It was a fuckup on my behalf. Fortunately it doesn't affect gameplay. 

Yep, i know it doesn't affect gameplay. But since nobody mentioned it before, i thought this was happening only with me. That's why i asked.

Thanks for the clarification :) 

I just assumed that everyone who made maps recently was in both the actively used discord channels.

Careful there... 

I meant in Bloodshots map, when i backpedal into the keys it fucks up. I did that by a coincident, fucked it all up. 

Weird - I'll have to take a look at the source and ensure that's not a bug in progs_dump.

I haven't touched the pack yet. 

Is that the one that does a look-trigger and seamless teleport via a bunch of map hacks? Don't think that's any fault of progs_dump :P 

not the whole world, i enjoyed the map and the pack anyway! Awesome job, thx. 

I'll report back once I see the map source. 

Absolutely legendary map, top tier scripting, great ambience and cool tricks with teleports and otherworldly mindfuckery. 

If this map was released 20 years ago Bloodshot would have been offered a job at every game studio making games at the time. 

Oh, man... Bloodshot's map is one of the best quake levels i ever played. Not only because of the cool tricks with teleports, the moving brushes, the monster scripting and the awesome sound design, but mostly because of the horror atmosphere, that suspenseful feeling, walking in the dark with 10 points of health with no ammo, just waiting for some enemy jump from the corner to kill me...

I felt like a teenager again, playing quake for the first time, when i didn't even knew about quicksaving and the basic behaviors of the enemies, when the mouse always slipped from my hand whenever a fiend appeared...

For me, this is what Quake is about. 

Just played through the whole map. What a treat. I cannot say it better than Tribal. Just a phenomenal experience and a nice change of game-play that still feels like Quake. 

Thanks for the feedback! 6 maps in still getting a feel for balanced gameplay that doesn't seem like it was staged for that purpose. Glad there's variety in streamers/demos to get a proper sense of what works.

This jam is packed with sweet dreams. Great music as well. (JCR, Newhouse, Pinchy)!!