Alice, Serious Sam, and RTCW are the only more recent games I own, and I attempted RTCW mappery until I decided that a) it was far too realistic b) I`m not really into ww2 recreation maps and c) my few attempts with the scripting produced only unworking errors and problems. I also played with Serious Sam mapping, but I lost interest in the game before I could learn the editor enough to make more than box maps.

And Alice didn`t really hold my intrest anyway, even if I could map for it, the only thing it had going for it was neat maps, and I can make those in q3.

I`d be interested in trying u2 or ut2k3 and mapping them due to their nicer engines, but my current setup can`t handle them at any speed, and most of the reviews haven`t been glowing. 

I don`t do much mapping for Quake1, but I do love to play Jeht and normal quake deathmatch on other people`s quality custom maps. Quake has a solid and simplistic feel that many other games struggle to emulate, what with the imbalance of graphics and wow factor pulling them in the wrong direction.

Quake coding is similar. It`s simple, powerful, and solid feeling. I can do so many things with Quake, and I know all kinds of tricks that I can use to get what I want.

Despite what people think, changing games isn`t just changing a few bits of syntax or style and then you`re off. With either coding or mapping, the code (or map editor) you use is going to be drastically different. Sure, you`ve learned the basics; but that`s an Associates degree and you`ve got to start over on your new Masters. Once you`ve got that figured out (and it`ll be a while trust me), then you`ve got to get a feel for the game itself. You`ll spend the next few months or year utterly failing and learning from it. You`ve got to learn all the traps and foolish tricks newbies pull so you can avoid them. You have to learn the tricks for creating what you want. It`s all there and you`re going to be struggling for a very long time. And you`re not on high demand either. You`re just one of a thousand pigeons flocking to the new games, falling over and trampling eachother to gobble up a few pieces of bread. And then the next new game will come out.

To me, quake1 is an excellent medium for me to carry out my purposes - enjoying a hobby. After all, I`m not being paid money or recognition for what I do; it`s for my own entertainment and the benefit of a small, close community. 

I think the best way to solve the problem of adjusting to new mapping tools is just for everybody to use the same tools. Unless you're doing something exotic in your engine GtkRadiant should be modifiable to do whatever you want. Half the work is done for the coders, mappers (pro and otherwise) get something they know how to use, and game companies would be willing to pitch in some support for the project. That's win win win. 

maybe ppl map for the same game out of habbit ?
...like some coders keep on coding for c64 

Esp. RPG and Scampie...

It seems lack of proper tools are an issue too...

Von, why are recent games boring to map for? 

not mapping is boring but the games themselves.
the result of mapping isn`t that satisfying as with quake because your map looks exactly like original game (read aard`s speech). it`s very hard to make the map look original with modern games. 

lots of cube mapping is going on... does cube count as a `new` game?
tho it may seem a step back compared to fancier engines, its certainly very user friendly, it must be doing something right as there is alot of community around it.

Also new games feel like they don`t create a community. Games like Medal of Honor and Battlefield 1942 that don`t even allow you to map for it. They are missing out on a large part of their community by selling expansion packs and not providing any tools for custom content.

Is there any data on whether custom content hurts or helps the sales of expansion packs?

hmmm im off topic now... 

the people who make and play custom content is a very small fragment of the established userbase of any given game, so my guess is that they help sales, by word of mouth. 

I think the more important part (from a popularity standpoint) of a community is the tourney kids. They're a vociferous group whom newbies are likely to want to be like and play what they play. 

do games like MOH and BF1942 have alot in the way of `tourney` leagues?
I myself haven`t delved into that "community" whatsoever so Im unawares as to whats going on in that dept. But with the only "new content" available being through "patches" and "expansions" I`m sure its a whole different ballgame as everyone is limited to those 14 maps that came with the game, those 2 more in the latest patch and the 8 you get in the expansion for another 40$

Maybe I should look into this more myself... but do I care? <wink> 

my opinion, newer games just arent as good as Quake :)

I mean with Quake you can build anything you like and it works, with newer games they are much more focused on a set theme and narrative that is hard to escape from. I believe Doom3 will suffer from this, but not as much as games like unreal2/nolf/avp2 etc... 

"I mean with Quake you can build anything you like and it works, with newer games they are much more focused on a set theme and narrative that is hard to escape from. I believe Doom3 will suffer from this, but not as much as games like unreal2/nolf/avp2 etc..."

On the other hand, I believe that Doom 3 is going to suffer from very restrictive gameplay. At least, if the gameplay movies are any indication. The gameplay looks like it's going to be so specific that you will be forced to map for a certain play style, which looks like it will be difficult to pull off and will get old faster than other play styles. 

thats the problem with many games - restrictive gameplay. Add restrictive style and you got it - game with not much freedom for creative maps 

a: only quake has idbase 

quake1 gives me/us a full development kit: we have game code (quakec) to mess around with, loads of existing custom textures (quite easy to edit/modify/add/etc), a large assortment of tools/utilities making tasks even easier, and a good amount of options when it comes to actually building maps. not to mention the actual engine code if/when i ever get a chance to really mess with that.

but personally, besides all that, i`m just not interested in newer games. no game has grabbed me to the point of where i actually go to the efforts of mapping for it (wolf came close, but i found it too restrictive). i dont know if there is an editor with C&C generals (id think so, given previous C&C games` inclusion), as i will be picking that game up soon as i get new system built. 

Cause of hanging on irc, trolling messageboards, and uhhm .. playing so called "recent games" in rather limited free time ?

m8 8 cr8 

well, cube was made as an "editor centric engine" from the start, because I am a mapper myself and wanted something which would allow me to build stuff even more "direct" than quake. I also recognized that getting levels would generally be the biggest obstactle for an entirely new engine/game, and looking at the amount of maps for cube I think I made the right bet :) 

you did indeed :-) 

<quote>getting levels would generally be the biggest obstactle for an entirely new engine/game</quote>

Good foresight. But why don't you map more for your own game? 

Our generation of gaming has passed. Now we`re the old farts talking about "back in my day". Gaming has moved on to something less fulfilling, less valuable. Maps will become more and more hollow in gameplay or less and less diverse. We`re just a bunch of old fogies telling the yungsters how things should be.

We`re right, but I doubt they`ll ever listen.

Bah, what a terrible mood I`m in. :)

I think that no matter how bad it gets, there will still be people mapping. It`s only the quality of maps that we have to lose. 

I think it's more likely to be quantity of maps that will drop, while quality will be high, because only the really dedicated mappers will stick at it as a hobby. 

good question... but remember that I am always more of a coder than a mapper. Why I ever managed to create so many quake maps is anybodies guess :)

I think I prefer creating the possibilities of great maps, and then watch on as other people make them. I am a decent mapper, but in no way can I compete with the best of them... what people like goetz & metlslime did with cube is just beyond my capabilities. Though I still think aard3 is one of the best maps in terms of pure gameplay :) 

Agreed. 

fuck u assholes i need a game editor so i can float and shit get back 2 me when u have 1 fuck this is it sucks!! 

what