I think this is caused by lots of games with shitty, shitty stealth mechanics.

Definitely not the case with ITS.

I played Thief recently - a game I missed when it came out. It was good but lacked the rounding off of the corners that modern game design has introduced.

The main thing it had was even when I failed I knew why. Might be surprising since it doesn't have any stupid popup tutorials or glowing icons telling exactly what to do, but it is intuitive, which ITS also has.

I spose the point I'm trying to make is that heavy handed icons and tutorial dialogs that lead the player by the hand aren't liked by anyone, and are only necessary when a game or mod is designed by committee (like most AAA games) and the focus is diffused.

Which is also what creates bad stealth game mechanics, and therefore the stigma.

IMO of course :) 

I have spoken to a lot of people so far about ITS and the conversation usually goes this way, "I did the tutorial, started the next map, died a lot and decided stealth was not for me"

I think this can mean several things; the map is too hard, the skill level is wrong, the player is dying and not knowing why, the player cannot understand how to improve the situation or just got fed up with the learning curve.

I am always amazed by people and feedback, I posted a stealth run video of me doing a nokill run and I got comments saying it looks too easy and the AI are dumb because they don't notice me. In retrospect it was probably a bad choice of things to post but I assumed people would enjoy it because it is fast, executed quickly and without any mistakes! Maybe people need to see how difficult it is? 

@ijed, I am confused because when I read your first comments about ITS you were having a hard time, died a lot and found it frustrating. You say ITS has good mechanics but was that after playing it for a while or initially? Was there a learning curve or a moment when it got better?

In the latest version I have added a ton of extra onscreen hints, shadow hint books, F1 screens and extra tutorials, doesn't that make it too much hand holding? 

well I thought ITS demo was awesome, but I kept in mind that it was a demo, so that held it back a bit (ie, not a complete episode or map).... I thought 18 was a good score, recognizing the extremely high quality while also reviewing it _as_ a q1sp, rather than as a mod. Then again I did give Marcher 19/20, so I probably am a bit stingy. 

It's neither too easy nor too hard. But naturally, someone who isn't used to stealth games will have to practice a bit until he fully understands the mechanics. I think the main reason there's so little feedback is because people are generally lazy and don't like to stray from their usual playing habits too much. If a game mode isn't as instantly gratifying as the familiar, long-mastered standard q1sp, it's not as interesting and will put people off more quickly if it doesn't grant the same level of easy/immediate success.
Most unfortunate, but also somewhat understandable. I guess I wouldn't have spent so much time with it, either, if I hadn't been "forced" to as a tester. But this was good, as it made me grow to it and eventually really appreciate the stealth gameplay. Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm not a stealth player by heart, quite the contrary normally (although I did enjoy FC3 recently), but after a while I got the hang of it and now I'm actually pretty much a hardcore stealth ninja. I'd even go so far as to challenge sock to a stealth deathmatch if there was such a mode! :D

All I can say is that it's a lot of fun, has good replayablity, and it certainly isn't as slow as one would imagine - if you master it, it can even be (almost) as fast as regular q1sp. 

The mechanics are fine - I got lost looking for that damn button :)

I haven't played the latest version yet so can't comment on HUD elements.

It did take me some learning to figure out the stealth play, but not much. I appreciated the stealth pretty quickly... looking at my earlier comments in the thread they're all about the button, not the play itself.

What I got stuck on were some level design quirks of it being a demo - which it seems you identified and then solved with the update.

The actual game mechanics are clean, quick to understand and fun to execute.

Also, dying isn't necessarily a purely punitive because its how you learn - both the layout, and what works vs what doesn't in tactics.

Stealth DM? That'd be pretty fucking sweet :) 

1. sock you rock

2. finally found some proper time to play it (still not finished second level, but can't wait to finish it and explore it all)

3. very, nicely, superly done maps and mod. this is quintessence of atmosphere, unique gameplay and concentrated quakiness.

at first i was puzzled: wtf, where's stealth? and it wasn't obvious how to play it (it still not rly obvious cuz i panicked and stated typing various console comands like 'stealth'). i thought i missed something and started killing mobs like in usual quake, then after i found medallion, everything started working as intented. i still do not understand why there're are two blue key doors in the beginning, probly i'm too old... the words 'youi have two ways' didn't rly help as there weren't words like 'you've enabled stealth mode' or something.

anyway, maybe me randomly entering 'stealth' comand on the console or finding medalion enabled it and fun have started funally. i rly liked the thing with trsparent walls, very clever idea to make them enabled in stealth mode. the mode itself works nice if 1vs1 backstab. but there're ways to exploit it in a bad way, like, aggro pack of mobs, then wait till they're going to their initial spawns and backstab them like 3 in a row. if that's intented that's fine, cuz it was somewhat fun to have that feeling of being smartass.

i also liked crazy amount of secrets. of course i never found them all, but when i did there was that nice feeling. you really hid them nicely.

atmosphere with all its sounds and textures (pixelly) is just pinnacle of quake. nearest texture filtering rocks! anyone saying nearest_mipmap_nearest sucks should stop playing quake. new and edited textures are very nice and make possible to make fine details! very nice play with half-transparent stuff like windows and items. particles are as well made looking like they're not possible in quake engine.

the most important stuff i think is that all what's done, i.e.: setting, sounds, atmosphere, blends perfectly with offered gameplay. it's just cool to hang in the alcove waiting for your turn to backstab. or just hang in that 'window with view' and wait to jump down and cause havoc. levels worthy to live in! this is what makes sock rock! :) 

forgot one thing, is it intended that monsters that are patrolling ignore distract shots? that's a bit annoying cuz it works only on idling (standing) mobs in 95% of cases. 

I played through it and tried real hard and have actually beaten the maps both normally AND stealth mode...

Here's a zip of 6 demos of my adventures. 66mb zip!
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/103186490/itsdemo.zip

scamp_start is playing the start map and fucking around forever looking for secrets.

scamp_s1m1_s is me playing s1m1 in stealth mode. I had beaten the map previously on normal mode in version 1.0.

scamp_s1m1_n is a normal playthrough I did directly afterwards, it's a lot of secret finding... and then dying once I find secrets. :D

scamp_s1m2_s_fail is my attempt to stealth s1m2 without having even seen the map previously. It goes utterly and terribly bad!

scamp_s1m2_n is my normal run of the map. Pretty standard stuff.

scamp_s1m2_s_win is right after playing the map normal and actually properly stealthing... there are a few false starts (read: horrible deaths), but eventually I find my groove!


I really enjoyed the maps, playing normally I really enjoyed all the cool additions and the real polish you've put into each area of the maps... and then stealthing through becames this awesome experience after because you have a sense of what might be around the bend. I also love the TON of secrets there are to be found, and most of them sense to have some real logic put into them combined with a real nice sense of repeating motifs.

Gushing aside, I do feel like sometimes it can be hard to get the backstab on enemies who you've stuck up on. I'm not sure it should be changed though, as that adds alot to the rush of actually getting the stabs. I also have no idea (without watching your videos) on how I would ever manage a nokill run, as you'll often see in my demos, I often relied on 'stab a guy... get seen by others, run away... stab them when they decide to hang out at easier place to stab'. Poison was fun the few times I got to use it, though I'm not sure I always used it correctly until the end of the second map!

Oh, what are the runes for? I got both of them in separate playthoughs... although now that I think of it I didn't bother going back to the start map with them since I was recording demos... ok don't answer that I guess! 

oh, and I will say, after the advice of 'play them normal THEN try stealth' the stealth mode is way more fun than when I tried it before during the 1.0 release! Love it! 

 

@Tronyn, the score is fine, I am happy it got reviewed and you liked it. You actually mentioned something I never thought about, in S1M2 the ogres being connected to the theme of experiments in the castle which does sound cool.

@negke, @ijed, what was your thoughts on stealth DM gameplay?

I looked at AC3 and they had the you sneak around as a civilian and then reveal yourself and attack hoping you got the right target / player.

Personally I think ITS DM should be faster paced and not slow like traditional stealth. Part of the fun for me with ITS is the movement speed coupled with the stealth mechanics.

Idea 1: Everyone is a set of floating eyes and when close to another player they become fully visible so everyone has to sneak around for backstabs. Any items that are picked up will reveal that player for 5 seconds. Poison bolts drops a players health making them easier to kill with an axe.

Idea 2: Everyone is a set of floating eyes and when they pick up poison they are revealed and can do crazy damage (like a quad) with an axe for 15 seconds and then back to floating eyes.

Idea 3: Stealth kill competition. Where each player has to kill as many AI as possible in 2 mins and the AI keep spawning randomly around the map and doing patrols. If the player is revealed then all monsters will attack. Other players could lead AI into other players and watch them die or try to get the maximum kills instead. When a player is killed by AI they lose kill points. Should be loads of trigger traps as well to catch AI or other players. 

@vondur, wow thanks for looking at the MOD, I thought you were MIA on some wild vodka Xmas party marathon! :P

The initial not knowing how to start stealth is certainly a design fault. Originally the MOD was going to be just old fashioned quake and the stealth a secret you could find in the vault. Over time the stealth mode got better and I think is more original for the MOD and the focus changed. The lack of objective at the beginning I have fixed in my HD version and will be right in the next release.

The backstab killing streak is by design. I do not want to restrict the way players want do play so if it is easier to agro, run and hide and then clean up afterwards, that is perfectly fine. The Stealth gameplay is designed to present as many options as possible.

I never really understood the pixel mode until Kell suggested I try it. I checked out the console command with the Fitz engine and then Quake felt much better. I am surprised it is not the default in Fitz because I regret not seeing all the custom content I have downloaded over the years properly. All the assets have been designed for this mode and they don't look right all blurry in the other modes which is way I force the texture filtering to pixel vision by default!

It is by design that patrolling mobs do not take notice of distraction bolts because it would be too easy. The fact that some mobs cannot be distracted and have to be followed or avoided I think adds to the tension of the encounter. 

@scampie, thanks for taking a look at the MOD and the demos are priceless for feedback. I noticed a couple of things I need to fix which is always a good thing.

I was laughing like crazy with your stealth run on S1M1 and your final solution for getting through the map. It was cool to watch and even thou stealth is a slower pace, I still enjoy watching how others approach encounters.

I think most of your problems with backstabs is the angle you approach the AI and your distance from their back. You don't need to run up to them so close and when you turn them around with distraction bolts, you need to pause a bit to let them turn. Personally I always make sure I am directly facing their back before running full speed at them.

The poison section of the start tutorial went wrong in your demo and I need to fix that, you should not have to kill the wizard like that. Also as you discovered not everything in the map is useable unless you play on higher skill levels and in stealth mode. For example the electric traps.

One thing you were not doing is moving mobs around with distraction bolts. I saw the help message come up a couple of times but I don't think you connected it to what you were doing. If you fire a bolt at the AI and duck behind a corner they will investigate the location of where the bolt came from. With large groups this means you can split them up easily and move them around for single kills.

The runes are for an extra area in the start map called the Shadow tomb, it is not in the demo as I want to keep it as a surprise for the final release. 

play them normal THEN try stealth

I totally agree, the maps are designed to be played twice and there are many route/item differences between modes (vanilla/stealth). Trying the stealth mode before vanilla is really a hardcore thing to do! 

How about this:

Player is revealed when hit, or picking up an item, for five seconds.
Player causes x2 damage while eyes.
Poison rots the player down to 1 health, or is ended when they pick up a medkit.
Axe causes 50 damage normally, 100 while invisible.

That's with some of the stuff you mention in idea 1, but taking out the distance component. That's fine for monsters patrolling slowly, but DM players dash around too much and spray attacks all over the place as well if they suspect someone is nearby.

Three other thoughts occurred as well;

Wicked Hook
This is a physics based grappling hook we used in RMQ. Basically it works like a regular grappling hook but allows you to swing and use your momentum to launch yourself faster and further. As well as the usual sneaky tactics of hiding in the ceiling and stuff.

Theft game mode
This would be a CTF style thing, but with multiple flags. The home base for each time would be a drop point only, maybe a chute - in other words, flags can't be removed from it. The game ends when all 'flags' have been dropped down either one team or the other's chute. This could even work with monsters included.

Steal or Not
This would tricky to balance, but possibly very fun. Allow players on spawn to choose either stealth mode (with all the above rules) or normal play. 

Monsters are present.
Ammo is replaced with treasure.
Players are totallinvisible to each other.

Goal is to steal as much treasure as possible.

When stealing treasure, player appears as eyes for a number of seconds. 

 

Maybe i tried stealth on easy mode, then played through the maps in normal mode, normal skill.
I've never played a stealth game in my life.

Secrets are awesome. I'm always feeling - "Yes, this is what Edge of Forever was leading to." But of course Edge is special too. I must find about 2/3 of the secrets. 

@necros, I really like the treasure DM idea, it could be setup in stages that unlock after a certain amount of treasure has been found. It will also focus all players on limited supplies and get them trying to use the AI as distractions on other players while they collect the loot. It will also restrict the amount of AI running at once which is a good thing for network performance.

@RickyT23, did you complete the MOD? What skill level did you try? Any success with Stealth? Anything that you did not like?

@Stevenaaus, playing the maps on normal is certainly the best idea before trying stealth, especially if you are not use to any stealth mechanics before. I have such fond memories of Edge of Forever, a real beautiful map and it locked together so well. 

Now I'm in for a challenge I couldn't possibly win! :D

Not sure if stealth deathmatch (axe) would even work on Quake speed. Maybe if there was something like stamina that only allowed the player to sprint for a certain time. At any rate, visibility should similar to the AI radius, so that the enemy player becomes visible if he's approaching from the front, and stays too long in the other fields of the radius.

Could also have some focus on traps - crushers, trapdoors, and such - where one player can lure the other in and then press a button in the right moment. Or be backstabbed himself if he doesn't watch his back. 

Yes I'm still in the middle of new year vacation vodka fest. Still need too finish the mod and I will when I get sober enough.

PS. You rock! 

DM Thief mode, maybe make it so that each time the player is revealed to either the other player(s) or monsters it counts against them some how. 

Treasure = +50 points
Backstab = +20 points
Reveal = -10 points 

Sock, I'm once again chuffed that the universe has placed you here for my amusement. I had a really good time with this, mainly because it was a new way to poke around in a Quake-style environment. It recalled some of the tension I originally got from Quake SP before I turned into a jaded shotgun bunnyhopper.

I did notice that when I would cock up and alert a bunch of dudes simultaneously, that would often turn out to be the fastest/easiest/safest way to eliminate them. I.e.: Run away along my back-path until they all give up and start marching back to their patrol in a line, then zip back up behind the train and chop chop chop. That was really the main iffy spot in my playthrough... it seems like something should be in place to make "alert everyone" still a bad thing even when you have a clear escape path.

(Idly thinking about different possibilities: Alert time has a random component, with an increasing range as more dudes are simultaneously alerted. Or, guys returning to patrol will regularly "check 6"; several guys returning would tend to be doing a check-6 at staggered times. Etc. obviously there's a bunch of tools in that box.)