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Uh..,
#19930 posted by madfox on 2018/10/16 17:29:21
Depends on the game-wise developpement you tend the player to behave like.
A RL at the start makes it easy to clear path for almost the hardest monster, so then it depends on the ammo, health and armour you supply.
At the other hand with the weakest weapons you can build up a steady monster count that balances on to a harder fight at end.
Don't forget that several knights can make a player already uneasy to fight.
So an easy skill won't say an easier fight IMHO.
Or start with no weapon, there's an easy hack for it.
Thanks Madfox
#19931 posted by Sir_Random on 2018/10/16 18:25:18
Thanks, I do have a build up of monsters, geared at Normal/Hard. I guess I'll just change/remove some monsters for easy. I wanted to keep the ambush/crossfire situations, but I guess not many play on 'Easy' anyway.
Sir_Random
#19932 posted by metlslime on 2018/10/16 19:12:31
Don't forget that you can do more than just take away monsters on easy -- you can also replace them with weaker monsters that only spawn in easy mode.
For example replacing a vore with an ogre, or a shambler with 3 knights.
@metlslime
#19933 posted by Sir_Random on 2018/10/16 20:49:59
Thanks, that's what I'm going to do.
It would be an interesting challenge on its own - a map where the # of monsters decreases with skill, but the overall challenge still increases.
Suggestion: Progression, Plan Your Encounters
#19935 posted by Qmaster on 2018/10/16 22:32:04
Start with your ideal hardest level.
For each "encounter" consider the next logical easier encounter to step down to for Normal, then Easy. Either placement change, cover addition (e.g. func_wall post, crate), lower health or lower damage per second enemy swap out, or fewer enemies.
Gets fuzzy if you have near constant encounters but if so maybe pacing is needed on lower difficulties, longer timespans between encounters rather than one long continuous encounter with no breathing room between enemies (e.g. Nightmare).
Weapon-changeout/early-add is good, but remember how it will affect pacing, better weapons earlier = shorter fights = more time between encounters which can make for lower percieved difficulty.
Qmaster
#19936 posted by Sir_Random on 2018/10/16 23:13:55
I did make it for Normal/Hard, with a few strategic Nightmare monsters and I got great feedback from jcr who made demos in Nightmare. His play style is more aggressive than me so it was good to see the map played at pace and it seemed fairly balanced for him.
I just need to rework some battle areas to suit fewer/weaker monsters without making it toooo easy.
Difficulty
#19937 posted by Lunaran on 2018/10/19 08:51:11
I think resisting "easier is just fewer monsters" design is the right way to go. There should be fewer monsters, just not many fewer, because too few is just plain boring. We're all Quake Experts after 20 years of this, so I think anyone playing custom maps on Easy in 2018 is doing so because they're doing it on a lunch break or a stolen evening away from the kids, and not because they can't handle more than one fiend at a time. Maybe we should think of it more as 'higher investment.' Besides, Quake gives you tons of unappreciated variables that you can tweak by skill, both obvious and subtle.
- Armor makes Quake significantly easier. More reds and yellows, more often, effectively extends the player's survivability in a given fight by hundreds of HP. More Greens, or stretches without armor at all, shrink the until-death buffer to little more than the player's current health. If you do want to keep the same monster loadout on all three skills, give the Easy player several Red and Yellow armors and the Hard player only one or two Greens. They'll feel like completely different games.
- Adding a vote for weapon pickups coming earlier or later. On Easy, the next big weapon might come before the next big encounter so the player can kick ass with it, on Medium it might be placed within it so the player has to engage to grab it, and on Hard it might only come as a reward after beating the fight entirely without it.
- Greater monster variety leads to more ways the player can be attacked at any one time, requiring juggling more variables to avoid damage and find the safe place to be standing at any given millisecond. A shambler and a vore together are harder to handle than a pair of either. Variety also raises the chances of infighting, however.
- The angles that enemies are presented from makes a difference. In front of the player is easier, flanking is harder, behind is bordering on unfair depending on circumstances. Below the player is a turkey shoot, eye level is straightforward, and monsters up high have a distinct advantage.
- Quantity of resources matters, of course. Bigger medkit pools clearly make the game easier, plentiful rockets can be splashed around while rare ones are only for emergencies, etc. Nail weapon DPS is higher than SG/SSG DPS and so on.
- Frequency of resources matters too. A steady drip lets the player feel secure, but isolated bursts create situations where the player has to stretch himself to get to the next 'island'. Depending on where he makes his errors, he might have to stretch pretty hard (eg those 'quicksave with 5 health left' or 'shambler axe dance or bust' moments). Feast-or-famine item placement can induce mild stockholm syndrome, leading to more positive reviews :)
- Unless you're using a lot of Enforcers, maybe provide all players an early Lightning Gun and simply vary the cells provided, as a way of dealing more or fewer 'get out of jail free' cards.
- Don't forget that the difficulty spawnflags are present on every entity. If you're using monster closets, vary the locations of the ambush triggers. Have the Hard ambushes happen when the player is in the worst possible position, and give them a leg up or more warning on easier skills (or even leave the closet open on Easy so there's no surprise at all). You might even duplicate the doors so you can set different 'speed' keys per skill, so the harder ambushes are an instant pants shitting and the easier ones are more like a countdown until the monsters come out, complete with early warning aggro sounds. Doors can be temporarily barred behind the player on hard skills while he is free to retreat from a fight on easier ones. Falling into a pit can be a mild backtracking inconvenience on easy skills but death by spikes on harder ones. How much room is there between nail shooters in this hallway? With careful use of triggerable lights and skill-specific trigger_relays, you can even use light and darkness against the player differently.
Getting crafty with what you change between difficulty levels can give you ideas for entire encounters, although don't rely on that too much for interest, because any given player is probably only going to experience one such permutation and thus won't realize the need to appreciate how different it is from any others.
@Lunaran
Great suggestions above. I may steal this and create a "gameplay" video based on it and a few other posts. This is an area I struggle with and just two or three of these suggestions would have have a big impact on any map. I know some players hate "back spawning" monsters but I think if you use them sparingly as an easy task after a more challenging encounter they can be effective.
Ammo Science
#19939 posted by Lunaran on 2018/10/19 20:12:36
Here's a method I've been using. It's really rough, and time consuming without a custom progs to do it for you, but it can be a helpful way to ground your estimates.
A box of:
25 or 50 nails = 225 or 450 damage
20 or 40 shells = 440/880 dmg
6 or 12 cells = 180/360 dmg
6/12 rockets are harder to judge because of 1) splash damage and 2) zombies, but let's say every rocket is 180dmg, for 1080/2160 dmg per box.
Total all the ammo you provide in the map (add 25 shells for the starter ammo, add 2 rockets per ogre and 5 shells per grunt and so on), and that's the max amount of hit point damage you are giving the player to deal. Total the starting health of all the monsters, and compare the two numbers.
Researching id maps and popular custom maps reveals an average 'custom' of about ~3:1 on Easy, ~2.2.:1 on Medium, and ~1.7:1 on Hard. the id maps are generally above that curve (4/3/2:1), and custom maps tend to fall below it(2.5/2.0/1.5:1).
Careful cheapskate shot-counters can finish a map with a ratio of about 1.3:1 ammo DP:monster HP, but most players will have to resort to the axe at some point and will complain of shortage. RPGSP1, which was greeted by universal reviews of "good but I ran out of ammo at the end" still had a ratio on skill 2 of 1.4:1 DP:HP.
There are lots of outliers to these curves, though, because so much of it comes down to how the level design enables the player to *use* the weapons, as well as exploit infighting, choke points, etc. Do rockets get spent one at a time on individual zombies or can they be used to gib crowds of knights for maximum ROI? or are they useless against herds of shamblers?
It also matters when the player gets the ammo. Ammo the player doesn't pick up or can't use is effectively not present in the map at all. Does it come too late to be used when it was really needed? does it come too early and get skipped? or partially wasted when picked up by a player who's already nearly maxed and getting too much at the wrong times? How much of that ammo is in secret areas?
I Can't Add
#19940 posted by Lunaran on 2018/10/19 20:19:44
20/40 shells * 24dmg/shell = 480/960 DP per box
#19941 posted by metlslime on 2018/10/19 21:01:36
also quad damage placement
Glad To See I'm Not The Only One
#19942 posted by Qmaster on 2018/10/20 03:03:06
Right there with you buddy. I once made a mod that outputs my health, shells, nails, etc to the console once per minute. Then I graphed it for my favorite levels. Made sort of an S type curve and tends to plateau with plentiful supplies of ammo towards the end but health still only hovered around 40 to 75.
BUT
#19943 posted by Qmaster on 2018/10/20 03:05:10
I always come back to this: to heck with the numbers, make it fun.
Of Course
#19944 posted by Lunaran on 2018/10/20 06:39:46
I cannot caveat enough that such measurements are of little exact use. It's good for ballparking it and discovering "oh shit I'm way off" and don't trust it more than that.
Quake 3 Patch
#19945 posted by Reyond on 2018/10/21 18:57:50
Hello! Does anybody know if there is a special utillity for converting .obj to quake 3 patch? Also, where can I find any documentation about q3 patches?
--
Or use a model!
Help? One Teleport To Much.
Hi!
Have a problem with my map that I don't know how to fix.
After finnishing all and testing, in the first room, a black rectangle appears on the floor with the sound of a teleport. I can't remember that I made one and even can't find it in the editor.
Is there a way to search for things in trenchbroom or other ways?
GunSgt
I would go to the spot in the map in TB and "drill down" to see if there's a brush embedded in that spot in the map. IIRC you hold control + mouse scroll wheel to drill down your brush selections. Of you can hide the floor brush to see if anything is below it.
@dumptruck_ds
I haqve deleted the floor and theres nothing. I've also been going downward if theres something below. Also nothing. I have no clue? A bug? I've posted the map on screenshots and betas.
#19950 posted by metlslime on 2018/10/25 21:29:26
in game:
"r_showbboxes" will draw white outlines around all entities, this will confirm there is an entity there. (NOTE: i don't think this shows static entities)
(alternate: set "r_drawentities" to 0 which will stop drawing all entities, including static entities -- another way to confirm this is an entity)
"edicts" command will list all entities in the console, problem with this is that brush entities all have the origin of 0,0,0 so you need to look at absmin/absmax or something to figure out which one is the one you are looking for. (hint: condump this to a file since it's easier to read in a text editor.)
@Dumptruck_ds
THANKS!
With r_shobboxes 1 I found a brush that moved somewhere and made me trobles ago. Deleted it and that was it. Bohh! Thank you so much!!!
Hope you're doing fine and find some time to play my map.
Best wishes!
GunSgtHighway
Thanks Metlslime
:)
@Dumptruck_ds
Haha! :D Thanks for assistence! :D
Func_insidevolume And Func_pushable
#19954 posted by Spipper on 2018/10/29 16:47:41
Is there any documentation on these two AD entities? I can't find them in the ad_v1_70P1_documentation.txt, and I can't get the func_insidevolume to detect the pushable and send an output to a func_door, even though I have the "pushable" flag checked.
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