Another Hexen 2 mapping question --

My level has a mix of physical geometry torches (with i.e. light_flame_small_yellow sitting on top), and the full "model" torches which include the torch itself and the flame all in one model.

For both the full model torches, and the light_flame_small_yellow (etc) versions, their light value can be manually adjusted, which I have taken advantage of.

However, the full model torches emit no sound - only the geometry torches emit the torch sound. (actually, of course, it is the light_flame_small_yellow that is hard-coded to emit the torch sound)

I noticed this while playing single player Hexen II also, and always thought it was weird. The full 3D model torches were dead silent, and the torches creates with geometry + the flame model on top made sound.

Naturally I assumed I can just add a "sound_ambient" and add a torch sound, near all of my silent torches. However, the ambient sounds you can choose from in sound_ambient seem hard-coded too... They don't include all of the sounds in the game:

"soundtype" values :

1 - windmill
2 - dripping, echoing sewer water sound
3 - dripping water with no echo
4 - subtle sky/wind
5 - crickets / night sounds
6 - birds
7 - raven caw
8 - rocks falling
9 - lava bubble
10 - water gurgle
11 - metal
12 - pounding
13 - random moans and screams
14 - creaking
15 - chain rattling

Is there any way I can get around this, and have those silent 3D model torches emit sound also? 

Set key|values:
soundtype | 0
noise1 | "raven/flame1.wav" 

Just place an entity and rename it to FireAmbient.

Be sure to caputalize the F and the A. 

Ahh.....I don't suppose you have seen an error like this before?

https://i.imgur.com/i8XMJCV.png

Not knowing how to make a blank Entity, the first thing I noticed was that even BSP/geometry has a classname - "worldspawn". I made a new cube, and renamed worldspawn to FireAmbient. The block stayed as a blocked, so I immediately deleted it.

Then I tried the "raven/flame1.wav" method. First I tried it without quotes, then with quotes. Both attempts gave me that error above when I tried to run my map - and since I assumed the problem was those torches, I removed them, but the error stayed. It could be a coincidence but it's probably more likely that I've done something (wrong) that the editor/engine didn't like.

I noticed you can open up the .map file in Notepad, but I couldn't see anything that looks corrupt or wrong, like an "empty" entity or anything, but then again I might not know what to look for error-wise. :( 

And unfortunately I have no backup of the map. I can open it up in the map editor, but I can't run it in game currently 

The engine needs to have the sound precached before you can use it (ya I know why not just precache on the fly, Darkplaces does). Typically something like light_small_flameyellow will precache its flame model and sound. Put one in and see if that helps. Also don't use quotes.

To make any point entity:
Add something like info_null
Rename it to desired function name, in this case, FireAmbient.
Not sure what editor you are using but should be able to edit the entity name regardless if it is in the fgd or not. 

You didn't rename the only brush entity named worldspawn did you? If so, then your map has no actual map. Check the .map in nofepad and see if the top emtity is named worldspawn. Worldspawn is what all the non-entity brushes use. 

Ah! Ya, you renamed worldspawn. Worldspawn precaches all the models and sounds so thats why you have a precache error.

Um, not sure how you did that. What editor are you using?

You may need to in the editor:
Copy all map contents
open a new map
Paste

To get worldspawn back. 

https://i.imgur.com/1VGZAlF.png

I opened it in Notepad again and checked the top/first entity - yes, you were right - the top entity looked like this, in my map:

//BSPMAPTYPE0001
{
"wad" "demo1.wad"
{

I changed it to

//BSPMAPTYPE0001
{
"wad" "demo1.wad"
"classname" "worldspawn"
{

And the map works again :)

The editor I'm using is called "BSP" by Yahn Bernier. To be honest, I like the editor a lot. I haven't had many issues with it until just then. I find it easier to create and manipulate brushes than in Hammer, which I used to use for Half-Life/Half-Life 2, and EXCEEDINGLY easier to create and manipulate brushes than in UnrealEd 1.0, which I used to use for Unreal and Deus Ex.

Normally, in this ("BSP") editor, I click on a thing to highlight it, and I can edit its fields in the properties window on the left, and (I assume) it only changes that single entity. I created a new, floating block, selected only that block, and renamed its classname to FireAmbient. After realizing that nothing happened (the block remained a brick-textured block), I deleted it. Somehow I suppose that messed up worldspawn for the entire map. :)

Here is a shot of the editor:

https://i.imgur.com/rPohgvA.png

In the past, I had tried setting up some other editors first, for Hexen II - I know one of them I definitely tried to set up was called QuArK. I couldn't get it set up properly. "BSP" was the only one I finally figured out how to set up for H2. 

I tried to find BSP Editor one day but couldn't find it. Where did you download it?

I just stick with JACK/Hammer. TB2 is pretty cool, though, you should try it.

Did FireAmbient work? 

Also, the "FireAmbient" entity way worked, however, I thought it might be better to use the method you suggested first, to give the actual torch soundtype: 0 and noise1: raven/flame1.wav

That way (with the raven/flame1.wav) didn't seem to work though, is there maybe another field that it needs to play the sound, like a sound_radius or something?

Also, is there any way you could suggest that I learn about all these hidden variables? It seems to me that it's important to know how to modify values beyond what the editor 'wants' you to see.

Thanks again for the help : ) 

Here it is http://www.bspquakeeditor.com/downloads.php 

I've never actually played Hexen II (looks interesting tho), but the hcc source code contains all "entities".

Each entity is actually just a function name in the code. When a level is loaded, all entities are found and their corresponding function is ran. You probably won't find FireAmbient on any fgd or entity definition file because it was really only intended as a way to quickly add the ambient in the code fotr all the fire lights without as much copynpaste.

Source can be found here: http://www.insideqc.com/h2tut/h2started.htm

sound.hc has the code for sound_ambient. 

No joke Hexen 2 is one of my all-time favorite old games. I liked Hexen 1, but I actually have a lot more fun playing Hexen 2. I think it has to do with that in Hexen 1, a lot of the levels/worlds start to feel like abstract ideas rather than actual, physical places. In Hexen 2, you have physical "real" landmarks, like a castle with a drawbridge, a mill, a pasture with trees, a medieval butcher's shop with a meat cellar, etc.

Some levels (like Winnowing Hall) in Hexen 1 had seemingly "real" locations too, but once you get to the HUB in H1, it's like: "This is the ice world" "This is the fire world". They just seemed a little abstract.

Furthermore, in the Quake engine, you can sprint around really fast (at admittedly ridiculous and unfair speeds if you exploit it - there is no stamina bar) and jump and dodge projectiles and stuff.

Most Hexen 2 levels have the format of: Bring you past a locked door, or puzzle that you can't solve yet, and also give you another pathway. The puzzle piece/key being down that pathway, which means you have to backtrack to the locked door after you find it.

Apparently, (I read some reviews) some people hated the backtracking and puzzles aspect of H2. They got frustrated, and either gave up and stopped playing, or cheated to skip past. I never had such problems. I think the first time I beat Hexen 2, I was like 12 and I did it without guides. Some puzzles I never understood the logic for, (there is one puzzle in the Egypt world where you have to align two wheels to constellations or something) but can be solved by guessing and checking.

i.e. A+A no, A+B no, A+C no ..... D+E no, D+F no, D+G "sequence complete!"

And personally I love the art style and enemies of H2. They all look awesome. And just like in Hexen 1, you feel very "alone". There's no NPCs or shops, just you, and a bunch of demons and weird puzzles in creepy locations. 

So I loaded up all of the .hc files in Visual Studio so that I can easily ctrl+F through all of them at once -

The definition of FireAmbient is :

void ()FireAmbient =
{
precache_sound ( "raven/flame1.wav");
ambientsound ( self.origin, "raven/flame1.wav", 0.50000, ATTN_STATIC);
};

Well, I know that I already have "origin" defined in my wall torch (it's automatically there), and I know that that second field is "sound1" which I've added too. I don't know what the 3rd field (0.50000 value) is, but I assume it's either something that controls the radius or volume (or both), and I assume ATTN_STATIC is for sounds that just constantly repeat (not sure), but I know the value for it is "3", but I don't know the field name that it goes to.

So I figured I would just look up the function definition for ambientsound() but it's just like... not in any of the files? And neither is sound(). There are plenty of CALLs to those functions, and the DECLARATIONs are there:

void (vector a, string b, float c, float d)ambientsound = #74;

-- but no definitions.

Btw, placing the separate FireAmbient entities works just fine, but I was hoping to get the ambient sound to work by coming straight from the torch entities instead -- really this is mostly for learning. Now that I know I can look at the code, things are much clearer, and if not for these core function defs missing, I assume I could've found out what those missing fields were. Any ideas? 

Also, just to avoid confusion:

sound_ambient() IS defined in sound.hc. But sound_ambient() calls something called ambientsound(), which is the one I can't find the definition for anywhere. 

After googling a lot I finally found this piece of code in some Quake dev forum post:

ambientsound (self.origin, self.soundpath, self.vol, self.attn);

This would imply that those missing fields (3 and 4) I was looking for were simply "vol" and "attn". Unfortunately when I tried them -- I added "vol" "0.5" and "attn" "3", which are the same values that FireAmbient would use -- I got "VOL is not a field" "ATTN is not a field" in the Hexen 2 console upon loading the map.

Hmm.. 

They refer to #78, #65, etc. Those are predefined by the engine.

Ah, no, you can't add sound1 to the torch. The torch already has its own function. If you make a FireAmbient entity you'll have to put it next to your torch. 

Darn, well that's just as well, it works nicely that way, but was curious as to how flexible things can get with the custom fields, etc

Thanks once again, I've already learned a great deal in the past few days. I guess I should probably register here by now.

Hopefully this will all result in a new custom mission for H2, but we'll see. I've mapped for a lot of older games before, but mostly I made multiplayer DM/TDM maps, which are admittedly a lot easier to make since you don't need to worry about scripted events, puzzles, AI etc, and are always limited to one single map. 

Some trivia. The guy who created BSP was hired by Valve and has been there for 19 years. So BSP most likely landed him his job there. And I assume he worked on Hammer as he's a tools programmer for Valve.

I've used BSP a little bit here and there. The primitive shapes are very handy. 

That is pretty awesome. I haven't used the primitives much yet. I find the vertex-drag mechanic and clipping plane feature pretty cool.

Vertex-dragging in UnrealEd 1.0 (and even in UED 2.0) is pretty horrid and painful. :) 

So I've got the Frozen fever...

https://i.imgur.com/jwl7mPa.jpg

I'm having trouble with using the alpha key on the blocks of ice in Elsa's castle. For one its really difficult to light them with any consistency. Second problem is much worse, when one transparent brush is in the player's line of sight in front of another transparent brush, the brush behind will "bleed through" the first brush making it invisible.

Look at this image, the ice bridge is transparent, and the crystals behind it bleed through:
https://i.imgur.com/mct0Xa8.jpg

It seems like something from the Sega Saturn that couldn't deal with multiple transparenices... This is Quakespams v0.92.2. Any ideas?

Not too happy with how Frozen looks in Quake, but wanted to release this in the Christmas jam. 

Transparency depth is a problem that games can struggle with today even.

https://www.khronos.org/opengl/wiki/Transparency_Sorting

Most quake engines don't really handle it very well. 

transparency depends upon the engine, the qbsp, lightmap/surface sizes, texture order, view direction, entity order, etc

if you take the stance that overlapping is bad then an engine could draw transparencies as depth-only, followed by proper alpha blending with depthfunc(equal). This avoids all the above issues(except engine, obviously). FTE uses it for viewmodels and q2 powerups both of which its awesome for, but it'll look much worse where overlapping is actually intended.

you might want to try using separate func_walls for the different parts, as that should be a little more deterministic (instead of only one wall appearing infront, the entire thing will, yay).
Ultimately transparency sucks and you'll get different results in every single engine, so good luck with that.

the other option is to increase the (vertical) distance between the spire and the stairs, avoiding noticeable overlaps that way. 

I didn't realize how cumbersome and complex transparency effects were. Thanks for the info Pritchard and Spike. I do think increasing the vertical distance between the bridge and spire is a good option. Although I don't think an entirely transparent castle is feasible anymore, the bleeding is just too jarring.

I've already started making some new different coloured ice textures as an alternative, and I think it will make the lighting better, with the castle non-transparent, and perhaps only a few bits here and there semi-transparent for effect. Aagh, and it only took a few seconds to make the castle in the film...