@Preach, sorry for the hassle, I changed how it works. I now trigger stuff directly off the spawn points and I changed stealth alcove function to have a trigger on spawn so the alcove always fades when the players starts. It was too confusing the other way and the new way always ensures people have the amulet.

I originally put in a delay because I thought people would pause, pick skills, look around, but this quake and everyone wants to run at a million miles per hour! Plus I suppose if you have played the map already then speed does comes into play. I can certainly understand the quick start because I have spent a long time recording 'nokill' demo's from the start.

Preach, I would be especially interested if you find any AI weirdness, I saw a ton in your demos which were very cool. The most time consuming thing at the moment is trying to find AI problems because most combat in the MOD is defined what the player is doing.

@necros, negke, I am not sure if people are looking at the mod as purely quake and think it has got to be basic, (run+shoot) or they have not played stealth before or simply did not find any secondary modes for the weapons.

I suppose I have never really considered what 'old school' gaming really means and I know everyone moans about modern games but when presented the other way (less instruction, more exploration) people don't really like anymore either. 

And here's my atypical gripe: Commentary by non devs tend to be very superficial. They know they don't like it but are bad at articulating for what reason. The second comment seems confused - would basing it on light make it more complex, for this player?

The first comment is also pretty difficult to act upon.
'Do you like it?'
'no, it's blue'.

Showing the player (who hasn't played either at all, or more than 5 minutes) could be a good solution.

How about including demos in the mod? Just the simple ones that play automatically at startup.

You could even record kascam demos, which use a secondary camera which both follows the player in third person and goes to static views. Looks pretty exciting, I think some Quake done quick demos were recorded in this way. 

That's a pretty cool idea, ijed. I like it because it uses a format that was already present in the original game (demos when starting up) and also acts like a tutorial, the same way those early left 4 dead promo vids showed basic gameplay elements like the beeping grenades attracting zombies, not disturbing the witch, etc...

otoh, with quake, there was 4 episodes of content, so showing off 3 maps out of the whole thing in demos wasn't a big deal. doing that here, it's a much larger percentage of content being exposed at start up...

Maybe just 2 demos, 30 seconds each, of s1m1 showing stealth/nonstealth? 

Or even shorter demos. A good stealth backstab, impressive killstreak, or successful avoidance of a group of enemies. Or something like cutscenes in demo form, with a few key lines from the story. Hmmm, zerdem... 

Demo's are certainly a cool idea and something I have wondered what to do with for sometime, how long a demo should it be? should it be something simple? from the beginning of the map? maybe a small nokill stealth run? maybe the training area?

Someone else mentioned about kill streaks on stealth runs, what about a multiplier effect that if you kill 3 enemies within a certain timeframe you can backstab more powerful monsters? could create a similar visual effect to getting a quad so the player knows about it. Would certainly be interesting to track this as another stealth stat. 

For myself, I do not like being rushed. Ever. Neither in stealth or normal play. I think something like this would bug me a lot, because I would feel pressured to get the multiplier, even though it is optional.

I think I would enjoy something more along the lines of a multiplier based on how many kills you get before loosing stealth. I don't know how often people loose stealth, but I tend to loose it quite a few times during play. I think this mechanic would put pressure on the player in a more congruent way for stealth mode. 

nt 

Smacks of a scoring system - maybe replace the level end tally with the impulse �stealth breakdown� output, and adding a backstab combo as Necros suggests.

For demos, how about showing progressive stuff - backstabbing, backstabbing a big monster, causing infighting.

Maybe start each demo with it�s important bit, but also make them progressively longer, suggesting at more complex things, just after they cut out and change to the next one...

I saw videos of the mod on youtube before playing it, which caught my interest and heightened the features, so this would really just be internalising that to the mod itself. 

they could even be tiny maps specifically designed for a demo. 

but if it is only 2 maps to date, I agree that demos showing off the mod features/skills should be on demo specific small maps, maybe 30 sec demos. 

I've gone through the intro, and met the fiend in m1... but stealth is too frustrating for me. And it'd be nice to use something else than the shitty standard axe model.

This mod is so cool though :) 

Here's a run of s1m1 with

No alerts
No kills
No poison

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/s1m1-boss-rank.zip

I think that should qualify for "Boss" rank, for "Big Boss" you'd probably need all the secrets as well.

I also remembered a reply to something ages ago, where sock expressed sorrow that I was using poison bolts to distract, and wondering if I hadn't realised they were precious. I did know they were valuable, but at the time I was confused about how the inventory worked. I didn't know that poison bolts created a separate weapon slot, I thought you had to use them when you got them.

That might be a bit hard to communicate though. Part of the problem is the weird key binding for the weapons when using the number keys (I don't scroll for weapons). The axe and the regular bolts are on a non-standard single slot toggle, while the poison bolts are off on 2. Is there a reason they don't get slots 1-3?

It would also be nice to have some indicator on the HUD about which weapon you have or are using, although there are limits to what you can change, while still preserving the HUD for standard quake gameplay. Maybe there's enough scope if you use the rogue HUD, which came with all those fire nails icons for alternate ammo types? 

Would be a million times more awesome if it were something like a stiletto (backstabber's knife). It's a pain in the ass to animate convincingly but I HAVE seen it done. 

i am sad to say i didn't get on particularly well with stealth mode. i loved the tutorial, but failed three times to axe the second dog in map one without waking it or the surrounding knights up. this got a bit frustrating and i decided not to continue. to be honest, i'm not not much of a stealth games person!

however upon reading some of this thread i realised it could also be played conventionally, so did just that. i chose easy skill for some reason, so while it wasn't hugely challenging it was a sheer joy to behold and explore. i don't normally have the patience to hunt around for secrets in q1sp but felt compelled to here given the relatively compact layouts and the way some of them are presented to the player using the 'show and tell' method described above. it helped that it looked so great too (beautiful details & tinted lighting) - i didn't want to leave :) and managed to find all of them in map one, eight in map two. only three in the start map... will have to give it another whirl next time! 

@Any func moderator, please could you change the title of this thread to read 'New Q1SP In The Shadows'. I get the impression that a lot of people are missing the fact that this is a Q1SP episode to play with.

@stevenaaus, if you don't like stealth, play the maps as per normal quake. All maps are balanced and setup to support 3 skill levels and should be fun without any of the stealth mechanics. I know not everyone likes stealth which is why I created and tested all maps with both game play modes.

@rj, I am glad you liked it, was there any favourite secrets you liked? Did you try all of the doors in S1M2? Was there anything you did not like? Would you play the maps again on a higher skill level?

@Preach, you are the last person I would have thought to do a 'nokill' stealth run! :) Was it fun to play? Did it take a while to find out where the best route was? 

@Preach, yeah the HUD is certainly a mess, I saw the axe and crossbow as two weapons which is why they are 1,2 on weapon selection and the different bolts as just different ammo for the crossbow and thought people would like to cycle the weapon key (like rogue did) for the crossbow. I will have to look at what they did with the HUD, it is frustrating not being able to display Poison instead of shells.

@Fern, yeah the Axe is really a bad choice for stealth because it is not really a stealth weapon. I never expected the MOD to get this far and tried to not keep creating new assets. It certainly would be cool to replace but that means new player animations as well. I am not sure I could convince necros to help me with the animations! 

Well here is it, I like to call it 'The Cosmetic Upgrade' because it is mainly visual additions. New particles, new models, new skins, new textures, new tutorial, more main story, new stealth books, new menu/help system and a few changes to the layout of some maps.

V1.1 Download Link
V1.1 Readme file

Please could any admins update the top links with the new links here?

If anyone has been waiting to try this MOD, then this version is the one to try because it is fine tuned to offer the most feedback and support to anyone trying to play stealth for the first time. (tutorial / on screen message / f1 menu) I still would love to hear from czg, vondur, metlslime, nitin, scampie and Tronyn at some point. All feedback is welcome.

I would also like to state one more time, this MOD can be played in either vanilla or stealth mode, both modes are equally supported and play perfectly well! and all skill levels! :) 

yeah i'll pick a higher skill next time. i think the only reason i played easy was because i initially picked it when trying out stealth mode, as it was a new form of gameplay i wasn't used to. so i selected it without thinking the second time round

i'll have to get back to you on specific secrets (i've played a lot of q1sp this weekend!) but yes, i did get all the doors and loved the choice of sound effect, as well as the little messages that followed :) - the messages in general (including the books) did a lot to add to the vibe and immersion. really makes a difference when you feel part of an actual place where stuff happens (for lack of better wording) 

I am not sure I could convince necros to help me with the animations!

I don't mind, just send me requirements and your base model. :) 

Where do I put Impulse 247 to get to be executed automatically? 

I have updated the links, the news post and made a few wording changes to make it obvious you can play in standard Quake mode.

I wont get a chance to play for a few days though but will post when I do. 

Here's no-kills, no-alerts, no-poison for the other map:

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/s1m2-boss-run.zip

So quick replies on run 1. It was fun to try and find a possible route - I quickly decided there was no way I could get in through the front door without getting spotted, so the first challenge was finding a way to get the water-gate down. Finding a way from the nailgun room to the bridge took a little while, then everything was pretty easy until leaving the cave. Once I decided both knights needed to be shot it worked quite reliably. Spawning the shambler without being seen by it was tough, especially since it could ruin the whole run at the last moment.

I have to say that being stealthy in S1M2 is much easier than S1M1, the demo only took 3 tried once I had the route figured. It's a more forgiving map if you make mistakes, and it's far more open so you've got more options. I'd really recommend anyone who didn't get on with the stealth make sure they try S1M2 before they give up on it. If you get spotted by any of the first few enemies on S1M1 you're stuck in a dead end with nowhere to run. The courtyard in S1M2 is much safer for a new player.

Quick note: the demo was recorded on the first release and won't play in the second. I've now downloaded the 2nd and snuck a peak at the models. That flail knight is AWESOME... 

I can't believe you actually put that in the readme! 

And yes: the seargeant and archer models are really cool. Can't wait to see them ingame. No neat animation groups for QME, though. 

@Yhe1, no impulse commands cannot be executed outside of the game (shortcut,config file). Once you type this command and save it will be part of the save file and then when you start the MOD and load a file it will still be set, right?

@nitin, thanks for the updates. Looking forward to your demo or feedback. :) Just remember stealth does not start until you find the amulet. I did put this in the all the readme/help systems but it needs to be more obvious, my fault on that one.

@preach, I saw your nokill demo and you did something I was not expecting, a cool way to get to the upper balcony. Have you tried the nokill runs on the hard skill level? Things are much more difficult? I will have to try and get through the front door on s1m1 but I think it will be crazy to move all the mobs.

Sadly the extra models is a mistake, I was so tired yesterday I forgot to double check the pak file for files that are not needed. They will appear in the 'Aramis Keep' map which is the home of the Blue Flail Knights.

@negke, oops sorry, I thought that is what you wanted put in the readme file (credit and stuff). On a serious note your feedback has been priceless for this MOD and this is the reason why you and necros are included in the all of the help files.