I know it's illegal! I said that as my first line.

Yes it's IP theft and copyright violation. But that doesn't seem that BAD in these examples.

As a simple comparison: Pirating games. That is also illegal, but I'd argue in most cases, immoral: I.e. someone has done their job and deserves to get paid for it, and if a gamer is pirating a game instead of buying it, they are not paying that person their deserved earnings.

The pirate is actually negatively impacting on the game maker, but I don't see how the texture thief is actually negatively impacting on the texture artist.

Unless you're going to argue that people who play a Quake1 map with Doom3 textures will be so sated with Doom3-ness that they won't go and buy Doom3 itself...

(Incidentally I argued AGAINST pirating on here a while ago and got a fairly disinterested reaction...) 

"The pirate is actually negatively impacting on the game maker, but I don't see how the texture thief is actually negatively impacting on the texture artist. "

There are many arguments here but it's just going to add noise to another already noisy discussion and I'm sure we've annoyed distrans to high heaven with this hijack.

It's IP. The P stands for property and if you use it without the owners permission you are, legally, in the wrong. 

Further to what Fribbles said (I can't believe I'm getting drawn into a serious Func_debate but at least it's not about fucking guns or politics or operating systems...!), maybe what it boils down to is the following:

Imagine the Id texture artists come on and read this thread.

They see that some mappers have stolen their textures, that they created, from Doom3 and used them in some custom Quake maps.

They know that this is IP theft and a copyright violation, although it's unlikely to be pursued.

They also know that:

The mappers paid for Doom3 and thus paid them (the artists) for their work.

Going by the comments about Doom3, the players also paid for Doom3 and thus paid them.

The mappers have given them credit for their work.

The mappers have shown appreciation for their work by deeming it interesting enough to use in a custom map, and some of the players have shown appreciation of their work too.

...so what would the artists feel about the theft of their work in this case?? Can you lot - as "creators of stuff" - imagine that in THIS particular situation?? 

I KNOW IT'S ILLEGAL

Illegal != necessarily immoral

And if those "many arguments" aren't going to be stated, well, I for one aren't going to learn from them or heed them, am I? 

Thanks for the comments... enlightening as always.

I've used plenty of textures from "elsewhere" in my Quake maps. I always tried to give proper credit when I was aware of the source. I would hope that in the grand scheme of things nobody really cares too much about it... certainly I would remove them if requested by the rightful owners.

You could of course hit up the developers and ask their permission, but the main reason I don't do that is the fact that it is in the realm of IP law. I don't know the laws intimately of course, but I've got the idea that the owners are legally required to protect their IP if the infringements are brought to their attention (the key word being required, whether or not they care or actually want to deal with it).

Anyone know if that's correct, or am I getting IP law confused with patent law? Is it the same/similar?

Yours sincerely,

the legal ignoramus 

I'd imagine one big argument from the original artists would be "those textures look like ass in the Quake palette"... :)

p.s. if the thread derailment annoys distans, he can quickload to a previous save point and keep trying different things till he gets past this section... ;) 

ROFLMAO, that line makes it all worth it :D 

Shambler

I agree that they probably wouldn't care. I am also aware that you are aware that it's illegal.

So what are you arguing at this point? Do you want me to agree that they wouldn't care? Fine, yes, they probably wouldn't care.

I'm not going to argue illegal vs immoral because that's a cesspool with no possible resolutions within. 

I don't think that anyone here really meant to say that id has no IP on those textures or it is not a copyright violation to use them or anything alike.
Yes, it's their IP.
Yes, it's their copyrighted work.
No, they don't care.
So why don't we simply enjoy using such amazing work in our maps. 

from what I know about copyright/patent law, that requirement (chasing up infringements upon notice) is relevant only to patents not IP. 

some guy had made a UT map using quake3 textures and he (or his host) was asked to take it down by the ID software

Sock had made a texture set that used a bunch of ID`s q3 textures variations/alterations and he was asked to remove download link for that set by ID (either directly or via PQ host dunno) 

I didn't stole the textures: I paid the game... Also, if Id didn't want people to reuse their hi-res textures, they would have protected a little bit more than just putting it in .pk3 that can be open with WinZip...

As well, the comparison with the car is not good: I paid the car !!!!

Nevermind... 

... when you've paid your car, nobody can blame you if you are doing "tuning" on it... maybe people just laugh because it is ridiculous...

so, no problem for me: I don't want to sell my "tuned" car :P 

Stop digging. 

you should open your mind.... 

Speeds: original UT was in direct competition with Q3 game at the time, so that is probably why ID wanted the mapper to take it down.

Any new map with D3 textures on the way? Thanks 

"you should open your mind...."

Imagination and fantasy won't change laws. They are what they are. 

you totally dont get
please read the goddaman license for the game and the tools!
you only buy the copy of the game to play - you cant re-destribute eiher the game or any part of it

Doom III\Docs\License.txt
scroll for:

2. Permitted New Creations.

Read it please. Open your mind and try to grasp the concept of copyright and licensing 

And Q3 texture modification by Sock were in competition with what? (and that was like 3-4 years past q3 release too) IDs position of such things is very clear.

Any new map with D3 textures on the way?
yeah, sure: http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=54 

but this really should go to GA. I think there is still plenty to say about this map :) 

*chop* *chop* *chop*

Intellectual property is an oxymoron. Get over it. 

...priceless! 

"Intellectual property is an oxymoron. Get over it."

This is what people say until they have some. When that happens it suddenly becomes very important. :) 

OK, fine, I read it, and I conclude that everybody herer now have all to erase his HD that contains Quake and all the fancy mods developed onto original Quake ! As well, for all the textures, etc... as customization is prohibited...
Interesting :P 

Many people download or make music mixsets and even though that is a much more EVIL thing no-one cares. It's been a grey zone forever and people like it that way.

Some of the hot tempered posts might be due to people's job in the industry?