yet remember, maps like "Hell In A Can" are utterly fantastic, and they deviate so much from the traditional q1sp fare! 

Haven't finished this yet, because of frustration. Almost every encounter is a forewarned situation - if you're not, then you die. If you don't die then you die on the next encounter.

Think you've moved out of the 'reasonable expectation' parameters a bit, but I'll come back to the map and finish it before complaining any more. 

On skill 1.

Found the first half pretty easy, because I knew where the monsters were.

3 eliminators = 2 enforcers, 2 defenders, 2 rocketeers?

Shambler ambush and bridge ambush were ok, but why throw in two Vorelings after the Shambler?

Theres stuff here that by convention would be secret - trinity, 1st nailgun.

Was it a late decision not to give the SSG from the start? I ask because the enemy mix is the same (at the start) skills 1-3 and the player has nothing to fight back the overpowered Quoth enemies with apart from the SG. If they get the not a secret NG then its more survivable, but only if they get the GA as well.

There was alot of stuff that just didn't work, IMHO, although the geometry and lighting were ok. Still can't say I like the texture set much either. 

As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO.
Also, as long as the texture set origin (i.e Doom3, etc..) is mentionned, then the mapper gave credit by default to the company who created the game... so need for a long copyright "story" to give credits :P
And the last, as long as we are not making money with our map, as long as we are just mapping for fun, where is the problem ? Are we stoling money ?

The only thing I could understand to be blamed for, is that I distored the original Doom3 texture set, and that's it... The only thing distrans could be blamed for is trying to innovate, and show something else than "standard" gameplay and ID textures...

Anyway, at least distrans seemed to be happy with his map, and regarding the map quality (I'm talking about architecture, etc.... but it is my own taste....) I cannot say much more than bravo ! I want to see more Doom3 textured map ;) 

As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO.

That's so untrue I'm not even going to bother counter-arguing.

Meh, I'm a hypocrite of sorts - I ripped assets from quake 3, hexen 2 etc. in my maps - at that point, tons of people had. Doom 3 though? I dunno, I think it's certainly dodgier ripping from Doom 3 than ripping from, say, an id or raven game from the '90s. 

"As long as the texture has been converted "down to" Quake, they are not the same anymore, so the copyright does not apply IMHO. "

So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use? 

in my maps. I'm no texture artist, and also I create my maps entirely for my own personal enjoyment. All us Quake mappers are enthusiasts, and therefore it is a pure and worthy love of these textures which compels us to use them. Surely the original artists and creators of the textures would be honoured to have us use their work for our sculptures!

I think what JPL is trying to express is that the textures arent even used in their original 24 bit states, and that the modern standard of quality isn't even met by the resulting textures, so there is no threat of the textures causing any competition to the products of their original uses. 

So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use?

Doom3 texture are 24 bits, and Quake texture are 8 bit indexed palette... and when you know that a Doom3 textures are made of normal, diffuse, shadow, etc... tga files, converting a texture down to Quake is resulting in a complete different "look".. The most difficult was to obtain almost the same rendering as Doom3 looks... I failed I know...

Otherwise why do you think I spent 2 months on that if it was just a "palette change" ?

Come on be serious, it is not like importing Hexxen wad file to Quake wad file: Doom3 converted set has nothing to doo with original Doom3 texture set... except it looks the same :P 

Most certainly you are. If I counted correctly Bastion was released just 41 months after Q3A, while this map was released 45 months after Doom 3. And then Quake 3 proved to have a much longer lifespan than D3. You are evil!
at that point, tons of people had should not change any "wrongness of the action" in your eyes. Also these Doom 3 textures have been used in other maps before too. 

I understand that it's illegal.

I don't understand that, in the contexts we are talking about, it's immoral.

Id artists put the time and effort into making (Doom3) textures as their job. We pay money for Doom3 and thus pay their deserved earnings.

Then a mapper takes some textures from Doom3 and uses them in a non-commercial release for a niche market. A small amount of people (most of whom will have also bought Doom3) play and, errr, enjoy that map.

The textures don't go any further. The maps aren't sold. The converted textures aren't sold. Nobody makes any more money from using someone else's work, and nobody at Id loses any money from having those textures used.

Further, credit is given to Id, so all the players know that the mapper didn't create the textures, but some Id artist did, so artistic kudos goes to that artist.

Problem?? 

I think you nicely summarize my thoughts ;) 

So you're saying as long as I change the palette on artwork, it's free to use?

Doom3 texture are 24 bits, and Quake texture are 8 bit indexed palette... and when you know that a Doom3 textures are made of normal, diffuse, shadow, etc... tga files, converting a texture down to Quake is resulting in a complete different "look".. The most difficult was to obtain almost the same rendering as Doom3 looks... I failed I know...


Instant fail for even trying to argue that point. 

...after I stole the car, I replaced the number plates, filed down the number on the license block, and resprayed it a different colour. So really, it's not the same car... 

"Problem??"

Yes, it is. Is it anything id will do anything about? Unlikely. Are they within their legal rights to do so if they choose to? Absolutely.

You can't pick and choose and rationalize. 'Oh, well they got paid for the game and it's not selling anymore and I didn't make any money off the map and blah blah blah". It's still illegal. 

I pretty much agree with Shambler. 

In principle, I do as well. However, I take issue when people try to rationalize away IP theft and copyright violations. Do what you like but don't try to sugar coat it. 

has had their salary, been for a fortnight in the Bahamas, bought a new car etc etc etc.

We can't take that away from them.

Christ, I think that after playing Distrans's level people will want to go and play the real Doom 3, and a few copies might be sold directly as the result of this level!

In my band we play three covers. The rest is original, but sounds a bit like the Rolling Stones or Oasis or something. 

Stop rationalizing. It's undignified. 

NO ITS NOT!!! 

...don't assume averyone else has added '-heapsize 128000' to their command line as a matter of course.

...fog 0.02 in the worldspawn may not appear thick enough on a lot of cards.

...people like to be challenged 

"Problem??"

Yes, it is. Is it anything id will do anything about? Unlikely. Are they within their legal rights to do so if they choose to? Absolutely.

You can't pick and choose and rationalize. 'Oh, well they got paid for the game and it's not selling anymore and I didn't make any money off the map and blah blah blah". It's still illegal.

You're perfectly right, of course. I don't think anybody here (with any sense, anyway) is going to disagree with you.

I don't know of even a single case or incident though, in the 10+ year history of Quake user maps, where an individual was asked to stop creating or distributing Quake maps with textures from other games. This is despite the obvious ploriferation of the practice.

Naturally the inaction of the related developers in no way implies that they're OK with the practice. It does imply that it's not enough of an issue for them to feel the need to take legal action or even send a "cease and desist" to the offending parties, though. (You could of course argue that they're simply not aware of it, and in many cases this may be true, but I'm sure at least some of the related companies know that their textures are being used in QuakeX levels.) 

...but I really don't understand why copyright issues about texes arise now and have never arisen before, like around 1996/97, when everybody was "stealing" original Q texes to majke their custom map, way before the code and stuff was made public...
How is it that no one as ever had a problem with that?

Btw, I agree with Shambler and even Willem, just wondering.... 

"How is it that no one as ever had a problem with that? "

It was a problem then as well. Just because nobody goes after anybody else legally doesn't mean it wasn't wrong to do. A tree falling in the forest and all that.

Howevr - id, realistically, will never go after anyone on this stuff because they WANT you to be modding their games and spreading their IP around. The only time they would bother would probably be if you tried to make money off of it.

Fribbles

Sure, and like I said above, realistically nobody is going to get sued unless they try to make money. Legally, id (or anyone else) is more than allowed to go after people using textures in other games but from a long term standpoint, it's not worth it. Bad PR, ill will with the community, etc. It's a PR bomb that you don't want to detonate.

Doesn't make it right however, and that's what I was arguing against. The idea that it doesn't matter or it's unimportant. That's the wrong way to think about things. 

Since you're one of the few here that can actually talk about this in a meaningful way, can you shed any more light on the issue?

There's a Q1 wad floating around somewhere that has the original UT textures in it. How do you feel about people using these textures in a Quake level?

We understand that it's illegal and/or against the game's EULA to do so. I'm not asking for Epic's legal stance on the matter. I want to know how you personally feel about the following:

1) the use of UT textures in a Quake level
2) the use of Quake textures in a UT level

I want to know your personal opinion on this. I guess I'd also like to know Epic's policy for dealing with these situations...

I understand if you don't want to discuss this, of course, but please elaborate if you feel like doing so. It would be helpful to see the other side of the coin. 

Fribbles

I can't speak for Epic and would never attempt to.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it. As a level designer, I love having more and more texture choices when making a level. But then, it's not my IP. :)