...
I suppose I could scan my graph paper book for you if you need evidence. ;)
#12781 posted by sock on 2013/04/12 18:05:48
Personally I gave up using graph paper for level layouts years ago. I believe 2D visual devices = 2D maps. If you want 3D level sketch the route in a 3D editor with blocks and ramps. You can always carve up the shapes later for textures.
One thing I find useful is imagine the flow of your level first. Think of the map as a roller coaster with high and low points. Nobody wants to play constant combat maps, allow for negative space. If you don't have empty spaces you cannot create crescendo gameplay moments because the combat intensity is a flat line.
#12782 posted by metlslime on 2013/04/12 18:23:51
I pre-plan layout with a flow chart (bubbles connected by lines.) Each bubble is a space with a unique identity, defined either by the gameplay i want in there or the setpiece/visual idea i have.
For the contents of the bubble I draw isometric sketches of the room or area. Sometimes a top-down floorplan is cool too, but that lends itself to 2D rooms so it's better to draw isometric or draw both plan view + elevation view. I usually have too many bubbles and cut some of them during development.
My oldest maps were grown organically with no plan, but both Antediluvian and Rub2m2 were both built using the flowchart method. My professional levels have also been built this way -- with the exception of DM maps since they're so tightly integrated. For those I draw the entire map as one bubble so the isometric sketches include the entire map.
For pro maps I take the next step of blocking out the entire level with rough shapes first before detailing anything. For home-built levels I still do the entire room up to final quality before moving on.
#12783 posted by JneeraZ on 2013/04/12 18:34:19
Yeah, we do the block out thing which is a clear win since moving a few BSP blocks around is a hell of a lot faster than a bunch of meshes and volumes. But the whole sketching it out first thing ... no, never done it.
I was just curious because it seems like such a time sink. I can't imagine it being faster than just getting in the editor and throwing blocking brushes around.
Willem:
#12784 posted by metlslime on 2013/04/12 18:42:02
For me, without hand-drawn sketches, I don't know what I'm building. I guess it depends on the individual, it sounds like you use the brush editor to do your "sketch."
I'd
#12785 posted by Drew on 2013/04/12 18:45:40
love to see an example or two of your sketches from Rubicon 2 or Ant.
#12786 posted by JneeraZ on 2013/04/12 19:04:33
Yeah, I just think better in 3D. I'm very visual so I can feel an area better if I can see it in front of me ... By the time I sketch out a version, I could have blocked out 3 versions in that same amount of time. :)
Yeah Me Too - Please Post A Pic Metl :)
#12787 posted by RickyT33 on 2013/04/12 19:04:47
I am terrible. I'm getting better, but I tend to just build the layout in the editor, almost completely linearly. I also do most detailing as I go. I can totally see the benefit of drawing pics and sketching layouts beforehand though.
Cross Post
#12788 posted by RickyT33 on 2013/04/12 19:05:05
Pro Habits
#12789 posted by sock on 2013/04/12 19:41:01
I pre-plan layout with a flow chart (bubbles connected by lines.)
A lot of games companies do that method. Some call them 'action bubble', 'encounter' or 'scenario' they are a very good way of grouping a chunk of gameplay together.
it's better to draw isometric or draw both plan view + elevation view
Lots of design tests still expect Level Designers to be able to do this at interviews on whiteboards or for written tests. Being able to represent an encounter space isometrically is a good skill to have, but this is different to 2D floor plans.
Flow
#12790 posted by ijed on 2013/04/12 19:51:33
Is important yeah, I usually draw concentric rings somewhere and label what I want to happen in each loop.
When I sketch stuff its usually something that'll tie the level together, like a light fitting, pillar, bunch of crates or something.
Sock's got a good list there, I'd also add:
Keystone Texture
Choose a single texture, then base the entire level around it. Make a few rules for yourself, some examples:
Use the keystone texture in every room
Use the Keystone Texture only on vertical Trims
What texture you use is obviously important, but in various ways - slime is going to be a different challenge to a flat metal without detail, for example.
If you're feeling particularly adventurous try choosing it randomly.
Tilt
This is a rescue thing more than anything. Once you've built your 'uninspired' level, rotate it 15 degees on the ZX or ZY axis.
Difficult to get it on grid, but I guarantee you'll have something interesting afterwards.
Story
Choose a series of events and build seperate areas for each one. 'A bunch of marines crash in a ship into a netherworld castle. They fight their way out of the crash site and reach a deactivated slipgate. They then fight their way across the castle to a key but are mostly slaughtered trying to reach a missing gizmo to reactivate the gate. The lone survivor is killed by some big monster.'
Arm up each of those instances as a set-piece scene, then link them up and bang a start point in there for the player (who isn't the lone survivor). You could try showing them to the player in sequence, but it's a pain in the balls to get right. Just the act of you telling the story for yourself will give the level a much stronger sense of place.
Well
I never said I just draw the plan, I also draw the outside or the look/feel of the area too... having a plan allows me to play with ideas without having to lay down brushes (which for me is really the time sink part, plus I find if hate an idea then I'd rather hate it at the sketch phase than have to redo a bunch of brushes)..
Having the plan view *and* the profile view, plus my pre-made brush prefabs allows some much nicer workflow and consistency.
I'm really surprised that some of the great mappers here just work in the editor. Like RickyT, StarkMon was a pretty beastly map... I can't imagine trying to make such a complex map without something on paper.
I guess I draw much quicker than I map, but I have been drawing for about 20 years longer than I have been mapping. ;)
#12792 posted by necros on 2013/04/13 00:32:05
i draw nothing. maybe this hurts my design process a little in that there is less context and cohesion, but i'm too impatient for that kind of thing. if i'm sitting down to make a map, it's because i already have an idea in my head and i want to start building it right away.
#12793 posted by Drew on 2013/04/13 02:13:21
I can't draw for shit, so when I do draw it tends to be 2d - isometric sketches of even rudimentary quality aren't really in my purview...
So i'm pretty Necros style, I guess... Except, you know, I don't actually finish my maps.
Even as a student I only end up pulling my act together because of extrinsic motivation (aka deadline).
Hence only speedmaps being produced, I suppose.
#12794 posted by - on 2013/04/13 08:01:04
On personal projects, I never preplan. I'm a big believer in the Cerny Method in game design, where you do lots of preproduction and iteration until you have something like a single level that is shipable that you are happy with, and then enter production from that point. For me as a level designer, that fits how I work as well, I make 1 fully detailed area and theme, generally something like a central hub, and then plan from there.
I also really like reusing spaces. I think it helps give a sense of place to enter leave and return to an area several times. It takes a little bit of thought how to connect things, but I think it's worth it in maximizing how much gameplay you get from a space. The trick can be to make sure it feels natural.
scampsp1 is a good example, the room I made first (with the spiral stairs and angled walkways and gold key door) I basically stuck a bunch of doors at what I felt were natural places, and then thought 'how would I get from that door to that door', and just mentally decided between a few different options until I had a clear plan.
At Raven, I had to draw layouts or use sketchup drawings and write documents of a plan for the level (based from a paragraph blurb for the level from the master Design Document) and then present it to design / art / project leads who would ok or modify the plan. Honestly hated these, often they would be a giant waste of time because sometimes you would get blindsided by random new plans for your level that were decided in other meetings... or the art lead would just randomly decide that some cool centerpiece would need to happen that you had no plan for... or some crazy storyline encounter would be decided on the fly... yattta yatta yattta... and then once you built the map, you'd go through much the same process and likely have to revise several times again anyway!
#12795 posted by JneeraZ on 2013/04/13 12:06:07
Actually that's one of the larger stumbling blocks for me as experience has shown that the original plan for a level is almost never how it actually ships - so why bother? Get something going quickly because you're going to throw it away anyway. It's just how it works... Iteration will eventually result in a fun level.
Iteration
#12796 posted by Kinn on 2013/04/13 14:44:37
Is the best way - start by slapping down big coarse chunky areas, move them around, refine and iterate. Eventually you'll end up with something good.
Nothing worse than spending ages drawing something out on paper then realising it doesn't work when you've built it.
This Convo Reminds Me Of My R.A.D. Module
#12797 posted by RickyT33 on 2013/04/13 14:53:51
At college!
(Rapid Application Dev. for anyone who isn't familiar).
I guess I use the dated Waterfall methodology.
Should be using an Agile methodology....
I Feel
like I'm a bit of an anomoly here... With Deck it's easy since the layout and plans are already in my head (and made in UT) so I have no need to lay anything down. But I have a blue map (it may be the next one, maybe) that I drew some above and sideviews to get a kind of feel (the idea came to me when I was going to bed, so I drew it so I wouldn't forget)...
Once it's released I'll scan the plans too for fun. :)
I deviated a little, plus the actual map itself is way more detailed.
I Prefer
#12799 posted by mfx on 2013/04/13 17:41:44
a pragmatic approach.
Me Fool
#12800 posted by madfox on 2013/04/14 04:01:31
I start,
then I'm lost,
I fall,
then I crawl,
I cry,
then I fly,
I wrench,
then I drench,
I choke,
then I'm broke,
I wind,
then I'm blind,
I carve,
then I starve,
I map,
then its's crap,
reconciles,
takes time of miles,
I flute,
then I salute.
Haven't Tried That Method.
#12801 posted by Drew on 2013/04/14 06:44:45
Distractions
#12802 posted by mechtech on 2013/04/14 14:47:07
I really have to stop reading func_ when trying to finish a map. I can get a basic layout done then I find something cool on func_ and get lost playing with it. Teaching old progs.dat thread is a good example. Quoth has so many tricks, now func_detail is here. Redo the map now to optimize vis? Go to The Tome of Preach find more tricks and must have models, spark a new idea for the layout. Map gets larger, more complex, larger add features and never actually finish. ohh wait look Fitz V can now do this or that, new idea! more complex larger map. I really need discipline!
BTW
#12803 posted by mechtech on 2013/04/14 14:50:51
Where has ZealousQuakeFan been? After TyrUtils release I thought we would see that massive map with func_detail optimization.
Indeed
#12804 posted by negke on 2013/04/14 18:04:29
That would probably help him a big deal. Though maybe he's given up on the whole thing already.
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