Also, Radiant is not much better. I mean - multiple rows of toolbar buttons with random icons? Seriously, whenever I use Quark to check something out that doesn't work properly in TB I'm at a loss. I don't even know where to begin just to select a face and see its properties, for example. 

I'd guess that the Jackhammer editor supports the 220 format, from the way they describe their texture features. Haven't tried it myself though. 

Is this thread turning into a level editor debate or something? 

It happens every time someone brings up QuArK. Spirit's trolling attempts prove sucessful once again. 

i am honestly not trolling.

I had to read tutorials before I could even place one brush in a radiant.

Faces in quark are selected by clicking the icon at a face (squares) or by clicking on the in the 3D view. Then I don't remember much but the properties are shown somewhere in the left panel. 

Radiant is driven mostly by keyboard shortcuts, those icons are apparently made by people who felt they were necessary for some reason.

Netradiant has a Help menu that lists the keyboard shortcuts. 

I was being unclear - that "multiple rows" remark was directed at Quark again. Radiant's UI is a bit better IMO, but also suffers from a lot of issues. But back when I was still mapping, I found Radiant to be much quicker, as in, I generally was able to map faster with Radiant than with WC or Quark. 

Quarl still the only intuitive for me :\ 

I stand corrected. I looked at the crater map provided by Preach and the 220 texture thing does indeed work in plain old Quake. Unfortunately it looks like Netradiant doesn't support it. 

http://i.imgur.com/E3rFS40.jpg 

http://quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/ericw_wip.jpg

This is done in QuArK, but I've got to switch away from it - it's so slow.

AFAIK the vertical shearing I'm using on the sides of the staircase needs something other than vanilla quake .map, so it looks TB1 isn't an option for this map (I exported this as vanilla quake .map in QuArK, opened in TB, and the staircase sides are rotated instead of sheared):

http://quaketastic.com/files/screen_shots/ericw_wip_trenchbroom.jpg

Any suggestions? learn radiant for now? Or maybe the tilted wood panels look OK and I should stick to vanilla .map. :P

I noticed Tyrann's compile tools can read the Quake 2 .map format. Does anyone use that in combination with Radiant? I'm assuming the Q2 map format can handle arbitrary texture alignment? 

makes me think that TB really needs a texture skewing tool. Rotating to fit seems like a weird solution to that problem. 

niiice! For the slowness try using groups/folders for your map and hiding some. 

TB doesn't support Valve's 220 map format (yet). TB2 will support it properly, but it's still a couple of months off. 

seems Doomish! Kind of like "Sever the Wicked" - exciting! 

Does this mean that the 220 .map format is superior? And should be adopted, similar to raised engine limits, by all the other editors? 

re doom vibe 

Is better in many respects but the most important one is probably texturing and how it deals with floating points.

WC3.3 gets flack because of few few things that I can think of off hand:

HLWAD format required which makes for extra work converting wads using TexMex.

The mandatory install location is hard coded into it which is not always desirable.

It doesn't always play well with 3rd party compiling tools as far as adding -flags without using a separate tool to use them (Necros's compiling tool usually) which means another layer of extra work

Difficult to set up for Quake without the QuakeSpasm (I think, maybe QuakeAddicted) setup tool.

I think that the above things have a lot to do with the fact that it's first and foremost a Half-Life 2 editor (source engine which is a derivative of the Quake 2 engine which is a derivative of the Quake engine) and not a Quake editor. There's 3 layers of engines and their extra features to muck through to get to editing a Quake map. 

It's pretty easy. I agree with some of the things you said, but really, it's a doddle to get it set up and get it to compile even huge maps for Quake 1.

The setup tool to which you were referring is called Quake Adapter (http://quakeone.com/qadapter/).

The thing that doesn't work too well is loading the .map files output by Worldcraft into other editors. The texture alignment is always scrambled.

The only other real issue (and one you didn't mention) is that sometimes people will experience a bug where the cursor gets locked in the wrong mode in the 3D view, and you have to save with Ctrl+S, and shut it down, re-load and everything is fine. But sometimes to problem persists. The bug doesn't corrupt the map, it just prevents one from being able to edit it until the editor stops bugging out. I haven't seen the bug for years, but it used to happen to me once in a blue moon. Others have experienced it. 

My beef with Worldcraft was that it obstructs the workflow in a team setting because maps produced by it can't easily be loaded into other editors. Plus people usually don't care to convert their maps every time they check them into the SVN (if they do at all).

Since most remaining Quake mappers work alone, don't intensely cooperate on the same maps, or actually use WC themselves, that isn't a problem of course.

My other beef with it was that it's closed source and unmaintained, thus new features that might require changes to the source (such as Q2/Q3 support) cannot be added, at all.

A third beef to me is the 4 pane layout; I'm used to working in 2 panes, a 3D viewport where I do most of the work and a switchable 2D viewport that I sometimes use to quickly create new brushes by dragging with the mouse. To my knowledge, Radiant is the only editor that supports this workflow.

Trenchbroom seems to solve some of those problems.

If Trenchbroom one day gets Q3 support, it would be worth long and hard looks from anyone who makes maps for Nexuiz, Xonotic, Warsow, SJ, Alien Arena, and any Darkplaces- or Quake3- related game. 

There's a new level editor in the works called Sledge, still in alpha stage and currently only supporting Goldsource and eventually Source, but the developer has said he isn't opposed to adding support for other games/engines if there's demand for it. Seeing as it's in development and only in alpha stage, anyone can make suggestions, and it's even open source: http://twhl.info/forums.php?thread=18410&page=1

I take it many people here are happy with Trenchbroom, but for people like me, who can't live without 2D views, I think this could fill the void nicely if Quake support was to be added. So let your voices be heard if you agree! 

Getting a huge Doom vibe as well from ericw's pictures. Also, I've been using Worldcraft for very long (more than 8 years) and switcihing to TB was very easy. I miss valve 220 sometimes, though. 

Jackhammer has Quake support with a WC interface. 

Reading the editor chat I still get bumped in houres mapping spirit by this bug that keeps holding on.
Mapping with Radiant is really sharp in cutting edges and staying on grid.

But what to do if a map like this the other day opens like that?

I tried to understand what happened to the wedges, but I didn't change them.
In Radiant1.05 the map looks great, in Quark6.4 imported it's junk.