@necros, I would love to see that demo you recorded, maybe IOQ3 dumped it under your user directory instead?

The Q3 sound system is broken in many ways, no volume control, cannot turn off ambient sounds, only on! Sounds rarely fade, just get cut off by portals, doors and button cannot have custom sounds and no channel priority for VO etc. I can understand why the sound system was rewritten for D3 because it lacks so many features.

I like the idea of changing the level after the first pass through. :) It certainly would of been cool to update locations with new details to highlight things better. Not sure how dynamic lights would of worked in the Q3 engine. I think it would of been easier if there was some particle effect coming of the skulls on the second run. A light ray or particle dust projecting from the skull downwards.

I have also noticed that people keep re-shooting the buttons (with the bulls eye symbol on it) over and over. I assume this is because no one knows if the buttons are in an on or off state. It would of made more sense to add a shader effect to them to make them more obvious what state they are in. I am sure it would also making finding them easier. This would of been good for the second run through.

The most frustrating thing for me is how the map hit so many limits and you can feel that at the end when nothing much happens because it technically cannot. The original floor plan for the map was at least twice the current size, but I hit the brush limit early on and had to scale everything back so that the areas I had were detailed enough. I always had my fingers crossed whenever I did a compile and wondered 'will this compile!' which is a stupid situation to be in.

@ijed, I have mapped for SP professional on Warhead and Wolfenstein. I know the process and have spent much time going crazy with AI placement and trying to get them to do the right thing. This map is a grand experiment into environment puzzles and trying to create a themed art style.

The door for the orrery should of had a broken wooden beam at the top so people looked up and noticed the button in the background. The door lacks any clues of what to do and the message of the switch outside is misleading because there is only one switch, not two as defined before.

@Spirit, the lights on the switches should of been more noticeable, that is a design fault. I see now that green and red is the best solution (after player HL2-Ep2) and it makes the switch state more obvious. I think this is where the frustration and randomness factor comes into play. Nobody seem to notice the light state and just keep bashing buttons until something happened and then does not understand why. 

SPOILER= I know I kept on looking at the buttons, but also at the second lift hole because of where the previous had been. I knew there wasn't a button there but checked every time I passed by anyway.

Same for the holes in the wooden flooring - I checked every one carefuly.

...grand experiment into environment puzzles and themed art style success. 

I WANT MORE ! NOW !!

Hehehee! 

Screenshot : http://www.simonoc.com/images/design/maps_q3/moteof_beta_all.jpg
Website : http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/moteof_beta.htm

This is mostly for someone over at Q3W, but I am posting here just in case someone else is interested. I have uploaded all the old beta zip files to my website and quickly put together a web page for it with download links and a quick paragraph on the major changes in each beta.

@ijed, I was talking about necros's demo file going missing. 

I have also noticed that people keep re-shooting the buttons (with the bulls eye symbol on it) over and over. I assume this is because no one knows if the buttons are in an on or off state. It would of made more sense to add a shader effect to them to make them more obvious what state they are in. I am sure it would also making finding them easier. This would of been good for the second run through.

i found i did this a few times at the end. probably more out of frustration, but many times it was also a case of "just to be sure". if the texture changed or something to signify it had already been shot (the way the skulls retract and the light goes out) it would have been better. (but i shot some skulls a few extra times too :P )

also, i searched my entire harddrive from *.dm_66 and didn't find a single one, so it seems like ioquake3 only 'said' it was recording, but actually didn't. :P 

dm_68 

So I have played your SP (with enemy) stuff then.

I understand the sentiment about having to mess with AI... but I tend to enjoy that more than getting stuff right visually.

Horses for courses. On the edge is too obviously a labour of love to not want to see the second part of though. 

http://www.simonoc.com/files/maps/q3/tn_moteof_final2.jpg

What is it, Version 2!!! (The defrag release)

* Added defrag timer triggers to map. Start - first set of pillars in Guardian chamber, Finish - 'to be continued message'.
* Changed texture on secret buttons (Painted red to stand out more)
* Changed light behind switches to blue. (Should be more obvious)
* Fixed the broken fog brushwork on the front of the portal model!
* Fixed overlapping brush in puzzle room 5. (top beams)
* Fixed texture on 45 degree light fixture in puzzle room 5.
* Fixed light leak on puzzle room 5 wall. It looked like a secret wall panel.
* Changed all the light map density values for puzzle room 5.
* Fixed wood colour errors on electric generators.
* Removed light switch on shortcut between lift 2 and teleporter.
* Removed light switch on generator in lift shaft 1.
* Added broken second switch panel to top of lift shaft 2.
(Hint to player to look for the button instead)
* Broke wood beams on portcullis leading to orrery.
(Should be able to spot the button easier)
* The lights behind switches in the first room switch off quicker so players notices difference
* Changed most text messages to be less confusing about subject.
* Re-recorded a new demo showing complete walkthrough again.
* Re-arranged the order of the skull-o-meter to hint at locations better.

The list above is mostly cosmetic stuff, but a couple of people wanted to play the map with the defrag mod. I thought why not help them out with an update and also fix some stuff relating to feedback at the same time!

New Linky : http://www.simonoc.com/files/maps/q3/moteof_final2.zip (49.1Mb) 

thanks for the correction, megaman.

found the demo buried in users/.../... (in a hidden folder, no less)

http://necros.quaddicted.com/temp/ne_moteof.zip
as a note: when i got to 9/10 skulls, i ran around for a long while searching until i cheated and looked at your site for it's position. if there's a fast forward, use it. :P 

Wow, thanks for the demo, it was cool to watch it. You did not talk/type much but it was good to see what you did. The last skull you could not find is the one that I always forget to collect as well. I noticed you tried to find skulls in mirror locations, this seems to happen with everyone. Not sure why we all do this either. 

There's a puzzle psychology at work that has general rules. Beyond that GUI presentation - re-hitting switches (even when you know nothing will happen), checking similar locations and so on.

Thanks for the update. 

metlslime,

on your web site :

http://www.simonoc.com/pages/design/maps_q3/mcourt.htm

there's a superb moody map. Why can't we download it ? I would love to play it. Pppplease ? 

Not a metlslime map nor is it metlslime's website. 

@Barnak, The map is just a doodle. It was something I did just to play around with a visual style. The map has no consideration for frame rate or performance and most of it you can see in the screenshots. Once I get some free time I will see if I can get it organized into a zip for download. 

i just posted this news thread, the actual map (and others on that website) are sock's. 

i just nabbed the texture set, btw. great work on those. ^_^ 

@necros, cool. I assume you are going to try to use them in the Q1 engine? It would be cool to see what you come up with. I will keep an eye on the screenshot/beta section of this forum. 

i decided to reinstall quake and get my editor set up and all that stuff... no promises on when anything will show up though, i'm still pretty burnt out on quake mapping atm. 

Example Puzzle Logic Image - http://www.simonoc.com/images/articles/puzzlelogic1a.jpg

I have always wondered about the idea of 3D scripting with the logic functions being defined as 3D shapes. A couple of years ago I started experimenting with a small set of entities to see what stuff I could create and the initial tests were a lot of fun.

Eventually the test maps turned into a huge single player puzzle map called Edge of Forever which consequently took forever to finish. Afterwards I was going to write an article about the puzzles in the map and then I realized, no one would be interested, the project was a crazy idea to start with!

After two years of avoiding the idea I recently found the time and energy to finish writing the article on puzzle logic I promised. Funny enough it turned out exactly how I imagined it would ... barking crazy!

http://www.simonoc.com/pages/articles/puzzlelogic1.htm

A big thank you to PJW for helping me with the proof reading of the document :) 

geez, I still havent played it!! Will get right onto that. 

Review
After a quick check through this thread, I never mentioned that I wrote a review for this back then and for all this time, you might have been unaware... Throwing the link here just incase you haven't come across it yet; http://taw.duke4.net/2010/06/quake3/the-edge-of-forever/

Article
Read the article and it was interesting. Good, tidy presentation made it easier to read and diagrams were a nice touch.

Its neat to read the author's explaination about the ins/outs of their level, decisions made and how certain things worked, especially the complex stuff. I wish more people did this.

Infact, I should get off my butt and do one for my last release. Plenty to write about... 

@Nitin, If you get stuck there is a demo (completing the map) included.
@Quakis, yeah I saw that a while ago, was very cool, I think I sent you a mail as well. I was surprised to see anyone (from func) review the map because it is Q3.

I do think it is a great shame that hardly any mappers here (func) talk about how they created their maps. I personally find the process of map construction really helpful, especially the fact I might learn some new tricks. I always thought the audio stuff that Valve did was perfect and made me want to play the maps again to see the final thought process. 

to have it on fewer pages. Too much clicking involved to skim over it. 

I guess those puzzles in "On the edge forever" are the peak of q3 mapping art.

Could'nt imagine to do something like this myself, would fuck my brain even more up as it is already.

Cant wait to play the "Florentine Libary"! 

@megaman, I split the article up into pages so the loads times would be better. Page 2 is also setup as an index, so people can choose which puzzle examples they want to look at next. Besides the page layout, what did you think of the article content?
@wakey, thanks, but The Florentine Library was a concept, it is not going to be released. The current screenshots show everything.