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Religion
This seems like such an obvious topic that it's probably been done before, but if so I don't recall it. Anyway. I've been making my views on religion known more than my relatively restrained usual lately, and I've come across some really smart people who disagree with basic premises of what I think. While I can definitely be persuaded on matters of semantics, the overall gist of the arguments I've seen - basically that disciplines other than scientific ones (say, philosophy, theology, even literature, etc) describe reality, that there is somehow a different sort of reality for them to describe, I can't be persuaded into thinking, at least not with the arguments I've met with so far. Whatever forces organize the universe are unlikely in my view to take human considerations (hey, isn't astrology a discipline to some people) into account when acting.

Anyway, I have gone many years with the (perhaps unjustified) assumption that most people on this board are atheists; but even if this is true there are likely to be disagreements about what the implications of this are. Lovecraft (an unapologeticaly elitist atheist) thought that voting rights should require an IQ test, for example. When I see Sarah Palin, I am tempted to agree. Intelligence does not mean that people won't be crazy it just makes it statistically less likely. Anyway that's enough from me, it's been a while since there was a good/new discussion thread on here so hopefully this goes somewhere.
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Tronyn 
What? I've been working. Fuck off. :)

I'm just wishing that this could be a place for actual Quake people to talk about actual Quake.

You could try starting a Quake related thread? You never know... it might work. Alternatively, you could write about some irrelevant bullshit like religion, and then start bitching when the crusty old timers come out of the woodwork and start posting... irrelevant bullshit.

Put up or shut up.

Indeed. 
Hmm 
How does contributions to Q1 mapping relate to a theological discussion?

[quote frib] 
 
How do 1 liners contribute to any thread at all? That's really what he's saying. He's asking that people contribute something of value or don't hit the Submit button. 
 
I think Tronyn is right.

About religion, er...

er...

yeah.

Not all of them are proselytizing, creationist intolerant book-religions. Not all of them are focussed on the afterlife (heaven/hell), either. Some are quite... different.

Sami, Native American, etc. Even Hindu (although there are pretty intolerant Hindus, I don't think there are Hindu missionaries).

You have nutcases in all religions, as well as outside of them. I think the discussion is moot, really. I'm just glad that I'm allowed to choose - that is the single most important progress in history IMO. Now it just needs to be enforced.

20% of Germans believe in the virgin birth btw - in the 21st century - which is staggering. Things like this (it TOTALLY was a virgin birth) make some religions look very bad. The whole creationist debate is pretty cranky, too.

I think creation myths are to be seen as metaphors, which can be enriching or at least entertaining, but religions that have a holy book and *take it literally* are... problematic IMO.

As well as religions which try to force their thing onto others. My single problem with Christianity is that they think they're "on a mission". Er, why not let those Amazonas folks have their own culture? Missionaries should STFU. The Jehova's guys are especially annoying. I mean, can I have my religion, please?? Thanks!!

Yeah.

Also,

http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Quizzes/BeliefOMatic.aspx 
Re: Baker 
First off, yes, we agree on being tolerant towards religious people who aren't extremists (post #2, I state my personal opinions.)

The point I was trying to make, which you seem either insistent to ignore or oblivious to, is that religion causes problems. When I made the statement about lying to your friend to prove a point, I wanted to see if you would either focus on the fact that people were lying to each other or if you would focus on the false belief part. You tried to twist away from the point and insert your own, about people doing bad shit to each other, completely trying to ignore the point of the post.

False beliefs, whether religious in nature or any otherwise, essentially fight against education and help to keep people stupid. Yes there are intelligent religious people (but let's face it most of them were raised religious.) America has a major problem with religion, we have crazy fundamentalists trying to infiltrate the public education system and replace any science that they think disagrees with their notion of god. (Jesus riding on a dinosaur!) Religion is a huge source of misinformation and false beliefs that I can't possibly see helping educating people overall.

If there was only one religion, and not like Christianity with it's little sub-religions, would there be nearly as much hostility towards others as there is now? If there was no religion? By the way, I can dig up all kinds of research/statistics about atheist nations and religious nations in relation to crime, violent crimes, poverty, education levels, etc if you want.

And btw, the entire time I've been trying to argue with education and logic, not hate at all. All this has been about educating people and why religion is pretty much wrong in the first place. Arguing through logic is NOT hate. 
 
I think when it comes to spirituality, religion, and what you believe about life in general, there's nothing that anyone can really say in a discussion that's going to change your mind. Something has to happen (or not happen) in your life to bring you to your system of beliefs. I don't begrudge anyone their system of beliefs no matter how fucked up I think they are because they probably believe them due to the fact that they're surrounded by other people who believe the same thing. It's more about social survival than anything else.

It's the same reason people are democrat or republican or communist or anarchist or anything really -- something happened or didn't happen in their lives to lead them to that point. It'll take something else happening to them to lead them to another set of beliefs, if it ever happens at all.

I was raised Catholic, but gradually through my teenage years, I realized I didn't believe in any of it anymore. I didn't feel the presence of God in my life anymore and realized I probably never did to begin with, but said I did to appease everyone else around me who seemed to have the presence of God in their life. I also think a fear of death is such a huge factor for people belonging to a religion, as that seems to be the main selling point of nearly all of them. "Are you worried about what happens when you die? Well you don't have to anymore when you join us!!" It's a pretty easy issue to get suckered in by because like someone else in the thread said, no one has come back yet to tell us what happens. There are also an alarming number of people out there who lead such shitty, awful lives, that the best part of their week is the hour or whatever they go to church thinking about the day they can kick back in heaven and not worry about things anymore.

Religion also seems to be so prevalent I think because people believe that the search for deeper meaning in their lives is something important. Like, "I'll be a better, happier person if I have a relationship with whatever controls the universe." But the search for a god or gods through prayer or meditation or historical texts is totally misguided in my opinion. If anything does control the universe, the only way people will ever find out is by continually investigating it.

I find it amusing that so many people love crime scene investigation shows, yet when it comes to solving the mysteries of our universe, very few people are interested. People like mysteries but when there's actual thinking or boring work involved, forget it. There's a lot of people who could probably tell you every little detail about some celebrity or athlete they love, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could even name someone that won a Nobel Prize in science in the past 20 years. I'm guilty of it myself. Is that society's fault, or do most people by nature just care more about the people around them than they do about something as abstract and hard to grasp as the building blocks of our universe? I'm inclined to say it's the latter, but we could do things in society to make people care more about the sciences. People need to be wowed by things -- science needs people as passionate and as charismatic as those screaming preachers who send their followers flying 10 meters back when they touch them.

So it goes with me that talking about religion ultimately leads to talking about science.

In summary:

- People will arrive at their belief system naturally, and likely via the people they're around the most. You can't scold them or debate them into believing in yours. Though if you try hard enough and you do it in an appealing way, you might convert some people. There's really no point in looking down at people who believe in God -- be charismatic and convincing enough to change their mind if you care that much (I don't, and I don't think most intelligent people don't either)

- People should care more about making people see the connection between what science is trying to do and what religion claims to do. We need more Sagans, Feynmans, and Dawkinses -- smart, compassionate, scientific people who can get the masses focused on solving the mysteries that will help us understand the origins of life and mankind rather than claiming they have the answer because they read a single book that was written thousands of years ago.

- I firmly believe that in time, more and more people will start to come around to listening to scientists tell us about the world instead of listening to priests tell us about the world. It may take hundreds or thousands of years, but as long as science can keep revealing new things about the composition of the universe, people will not be able to turn their backs to it any longer. "The man in the sky made it" will be as unspeakable as saying "We came from apes" was 150 years ago. 
According To Gbs Post I Am The Following 
1. Unitarian Universalism (100%)
2. Liberal Quakers (92%)
3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (89%)
4. New Thought (76%)
5. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (75%)

We could end any arguments once and for all by doing the quiz and everyone post their top 5. Lets leave it up to some guys website to do the pondering for us!!! 
"no God That Mankind Has Invented Actually Exists" 
well what about the one(s) that mankind has _discovered_? (lol)

re: frib, NE
I've got this problem with paranoia over cliques that comes across when I'm not sober as you've probably noted. I just wish you guys would express yourselves in a less condescending way. My point was I would happily put up with some guy's semi-consistent bitching if it meant he made episodes, but I am not happy to put up with some guy sniping when he's not producing anything. My comment regarding what people have done which you misinterpreted Frib was regarding Q1SP, not life in general. 
 
1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (93%)
3. Nontheist (78%)
4. Liberal Quakers (76%)
5. Neo-Pagan (73%)

I am also 30% Scientologist =/ 
#65 Has Won Teh Thread!! 
(P.S. I used my asshole credits a while ago I'm sure ;)) 
God That Mankind Has Invented 
God, immediately turn over the Squad and convince Nyort13! 
No! Not On Me! 
madfox joins the pool of disbelieve... 
God... 
... whoever you are: please close this heretic thread :) 
And Finally .. 
Select Your Religion 
 
the internal server error religion? ;) 
7 Deadly Sins Of Religion :P 
@Zwiffle 
When I made the statement about lying to your friend to prove a point, I wanted to see if you would either focus on the fact that people were lying to each other or if you would focus on the false belief part. You tried to twist away from the point and insert your own, about people doing bad shit to each other, completely trying to ignore the point of the post.

It's all good, Zwiffle. I understand your point about how religion can try to indoctrinate people with false "facts".

I didn't address that because I think that is commonly known.

I had a in-depth conversation with a Christian religious leader on a 6 hour car ride in 2008.

He knew I was essentially an atheist and we discussed dinosaur bones, morals, the role of religion.

Ironically, he is a highly educated man and describes evolution as "changes over time" and agrees that evolution exists and his perspective is that was put in place by God. (I can't recall if we had the age of the Earth discussion.)

And btw, the entire time I've been trying to argue with education and logic, not hate at all. All this has been about educating people and why religion is pretty much wrong in the first place. Arguing through logic is NOT hate.

It can take some time especially in a forum with brief posts to completely ascertain someone's perspective and understand what they are trying to say.

People will arrive at their belief system naturally, and likely via the people they're around the most. You can't scold them or debate them into believing in yours. Though if you try hard enough and you do it in an appealing way, you might convert some people. There's really no point in looking down at people who believe in God -- be charismatic and convincing enough to change their mind if you care that much (I don't, and I don't think most intelligent people don't either)

I think Blitz said this very well. 
Oh, I Remember The Belief-O-Matic... 
1) What is the number and nature of the deity (God, gods, higher power)?

...

No God or supreme force. Or not sure. Or not important.


What about "no god, sure, important"?

There are lots of questions like this.

Still, I'm pretty sure I came out as 100% Secular Humanist, which is a fair comment. 
Moo 
zwiffle: The point I was trying to make, which you seem either insistent to ignore or oblivious to, is that religion causes problems. People causes problems, science is hardly innocent either.

I think the degree of plausibility of any religion's god(s) or creation myths have very little to do why they still are so popular today. Generally they provide a community with social interactions, provide you a narrative based on their myths/stories, clear hierarchy, rituals and a sense of awe/feeling of being part of something bigger. In short they offer a clear framework that makes your life easier to cope with provided you play along.

Even if secular versions of the good (and bad) things religion offers exist they got the whole package deal.

Freedom and choice in everything is nice but pretty damn tough. 
+1 Bear 
there would be some nice things about *everyone* in your street gathering in once place for a chinwag once a week. urbanization and massive population growth probably have something to do with why this doesn't happen any more, as well as the dimishing influence of religon. 
 
have anyone of you seen movie "the man from earth"? great part of that movie is about origins of religion and shows that our entire christian history may be one big mistake. it's a really good movie, kind of science fiction but without any special effect... just "talking heads" and whole movie takes place in one room. still, there are a lot of interesting thoughts. 
I Saw That Film 
really enjoyed it, one of the most thought provoking i've ever seen. highly recommended 
Interesting 
I'm not religious (anymore). But I'm not atheist either.

What I find interesting is that atheists talk about 'intelligence' and 'proof' but, for some reason, they aren't willing to proof to themselves that there IS more out there then meets the eye. I'll elaborate:

How many of you people have actually checked out topics like Astral Projection, Lucid Dreaming, or your Energy Body, like learning how to stimulate your Chakras? I have done all of this to a degree and KNOW (versus believing) that there's indeed more to human beings and our existence then Darwin's theory would imply.
For example: once you can stimulate your Chakra's there's absolutely NO denying that they exist, because you will be able to really feel it. Why weren't you taught this at school? Why don't doctors know anything about it? Why isn't it accepted in medical science?

With so many books and websites available on these topics I previously mentioned, it's absolutely stunning that people still know so damn little, if anything about it.

It's also weird to see ignorant people write about 'intelligence' while they can't even realize the fact that an IQ test only proofs how good somebody is in language and calculation, nothing more. Which doesn't prove much, if any, about actual intelligence. You could even ask what 'intelligence' really is?
If you have a high IQ who eats and drinks in a very DUMB manner, then I think it's fair to say that INTELLIGENCE seems to be a matter of perspective.

On top of all this, there's multiple forms of intelligence. Some overlooked examples are:

- Physical Intelligence:
Some people can very quickly learn a new sport. They are in total command of their bodies and sense what to do to get the physical job done while others struggle to do the same.

- Emotional Intelligence:
A good example of this are musicians who are very good in converting emotion into sound and know how to interpret it visa versa. Some people can learn all theory and mathematics but still SUCK in music because they are not in tough with the emotional and spiritual side of the creative process.

These things are not measured in an IQ test. Why not, you could ask? Perhaps because we are programmed to be nothing more then a bunch of ignorant slaves? I mean, if I can figure this stuff out by actually THINKING about it, and by searching for info, then why can't other (supposedly) INTELLIGENT people do the same? Especially the ones who are responsible for our educational system? Two options here:

1. The people who are responsible for our education are IGNORANT
2. We are not allowed to know, because we would be more difficult to control.

Both options are BAD.

If you are INTELLIGENT, you wouldn't need me to explain these things.

Now, on to the religious people. They read their Bible or Koran (or whatever), but they don't gain any real knowledge. It's also disgusting how the males think they are above the women. Muslim women have to cover themselves up and have to stay virgins while the males can do whatever the hell they want. Pathetic. I'm living in an apartment underneath Muslims who are actually Moroccan drug dealers. I guess they think Allah finds that OK.
The male > female - thing was similar for Christians in the past, and in some communities it still is. Pathetic.

I could write more, but my conclusion is that atheists and religious people are a similar group of people:

They BELIEVE something, but KNOW nothing. And they never will until they get interested in these 'mystical' topics. 
Until You Can 
scientifically prove to me that stuff like Chakras work (and explain how and why they work), as a scientist, I have dismiss them. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that tuey work for you. But if there is no hard proof, I cannot recommend them.

Claiming that something clearly works because you experienced it yourself is not exactly a sign of intelligence either, you know. You can only base such claiks on hard facts. Hearsay and personal experience are not hard facts. 
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