I was glad i played this again -- significant additions and improvements made it worth another play. As I said in my beta feedback, designing non-standard gameplay in a quake level is a challenge.

First, you have player expectations to overcome -- quake levels usually all about action an aggressive combat, so you have to strongly communicate to the player that this level is different, or else they will approach things wrong and not enjoy it. The final release of this map does a good job by not having any normal combat until the end (the combat arena used to be earlier in the level.)

Second, there is the issue of first-person view -- if you can see a monster, it can see you unless it's facing away. Most stealth games are third-person and this allows players to plan scope out a room more safely. Necros' glass idea probably would have helped here.

There's still an issue with stealth in any game that also has combat, in that you have to make it clear to the player that combat is a bad choice in your stealth sections. Often this is done by making the enemies near-invincible, or have deadly attacks. Or, you take away the player's weapons. This level would probably have benefited by having the player totally unarmed, but on the other hand the shotgun provides a good way to survive after screwing up one or two puzzles.

Speedy did a good job of introducing the level's unique mechanics. By using distinctive and consistent button/lever types, and by repeating the "three buttons to exit the room" mechanic, he also quickly moved players past wondering *what* to do and into wondering *how* to do it, which is where the meat of the gameplay is in this level.

I think the weaknesses with this level are primarily that quake's intended gameplay goes against the stealth/puzzle design of the level. With a mod, one could easily have removed the starting weapons and/or made the monsters tougher, changed awarness radius, etc, to help support the intended gameplay and make things clearer to players. As it is, it does a pretty good job. 

sorry if that post came across as overly negative, but as with any feedback, usually you only hear the bad stuff. :P

i agree with metl, the map showed me exactly what it was about the minute i started playing, and introduced me to different traps well (monsters being affected by lava -> lowering bridges with monsters on it -> lowering the bridge quickly as a fiend is jumping your way at the speed of light)

as for an example of an area where i was a little frustrated, i already gave you one:
the room where the shambler paths around a pillar and you have to press a button to raise the floor to crush it cause you can't keep track of where the shambler is much, so the first time, i ran around the corner and he was just coming around the pillar and saw me.

but yeah, it _was_ a good map. :) (and the mapping itself was well done, btw) 

not my kind of map. One of the things i most like in quake is fast action with lots of blood and is something i only found in this map at end... but was fun to play lost many times but didn�t quit :p

please return to old Quake :) 

I liked it - maybe I was lucky not to have shamblers walking into LOS right off - I haven't checked yet; were they blocked off to make this less likely?

I died on the last 'real' hellknight, first walking into him and then trying to manouvere him back onto the 128 blue lift.

The ending could have been left out, I think. I'd've preferred something based off the earlier puzzles but souped up.

Maybe frying Cthon without him noticing?

Maybe the earlier comments changed my expectations, but even so I found it a good map - reminded me of monfree. Except for the monsters. 

I was hoping for more first run demos. Would be interesting. 

And thought the map was a draft since there were so few monsters and since he normally makes more flamboyant designs. I also played in Quoth. So run it with quoth.
http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/bamcog.7z 

You like watching 20 demos of people being crushed?

you have to strongly communicate to the player that this level is different, or else they will approach things wrong and not enjoy it.

I don't think there is more than one way to approach this map (you die if you try to deviate from the predetermined solution), which for me is part of the problem. More options might indeed be helpful rather than harmful. 

all the monsters that have to be turned away are always turned away - no randomness

there is no way for the player to know that. 

I had no problem with the map at all. I played it open-minded and successfully. The way how Speedy implemented a logical progression and teaching the player the "new" environments just rocks.

I would love to watch people's first run demos even if they are getting killed after 2 minutes just to get a glimpse into people's minds, to see how they receive and handle the hints/gameplay in this experiment.

gb: Why does the player need to know that the monsters are facing away each time if they actually are facing away each time he encounters them? Don't flame for the sake of flaming. :p 

I understand its not everyones cup of map and I appreciate all the comments. Its an experiment and I like to see the results.

And enyone who played and didnt comments, plz do 

it is nothing special. played on skill 1 and was carefull all the time so it could be boring to watch. I was also distracted by my kid at the beginning.
I died in the final arena.

http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/cogs_ankh.dz 

Took two tries to complete. The slopes tricked me up and the narrow timing windows in a few areas blocked my progression for a while. Recordings of both attempts are available.

http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/cogs_lurker.dz 

I forgot to record my first playthrough, but on skill 1 I managed to get through first time. I did have one hairy moment when the shambler spotted me, and I killed it by dropping the bridge down after me, in the same way as the hell knights/fiend before. Took me to low health, but it worked.

One of the things that I found very useful in the map was using monster sounds, which is rarely useful in a quake level. Before entering a new area you could listen out to identify which monsters were ahead. Then for patrolling monsters you could place their location and movement by idle sounds/chainsaw dragging, and so get past without being spotted. It might help to know that ogres play the chainsaw drag sound each time they hit a path_corner, so it lets you know they're changing direction.

The last arena was surprisingly tough, but that might have been adjusting to the change in tactics. All the mechanisms in the map were well put together - the consistent designs that someone else mentioned earlier really helped, and the tutorial bits at the start worked well too. Excellent stuff! 

I wasn't flaming. Let's not even start plz. ok? 

http://neuromancer.openbsd.pl/~lazy_bum/quake-demos/cogs-demos.tar.bz2

Died in the first try like an idiot. :P 

Great idea Speeds. It's nice to see something new in this old game. In the first run on skill 0 I used only axe and felt a little disappointed in the end because I was forced to use a weapon.

As Spirit said, a little probing to people's minds doesn't hurt. I like to see how people solve puzzles in the first try.

The last note, I can't keep myself from speedrunning every map. I believe everyone has a little speedrunner in their heart that just requires awakening. I apologize that I raped your map in this 1:40 speedrun. Well, the shambler raped my ass multiple times so I guess you'll forgive. :)

http://nahkahiir.thps3.net/quake/cogs_aspokala.zip 

Have sent demo. Died on Fiend that spawns after you collect the health over the bridge. Completed it next time.

Interesting map, pretty good in several bits. Respect to you for doing it. I'm sure there's a lot of potential here. The Shambler with the head-height dividing wall was really cool. As was the bridge section mentioned above. Actually the other Shambler was good too.

Some of the other trap combats weren't as interesting or as essential-feeling. But it's a good start!

Ummmm, that's all. Brain stopped working. 

Try it with the careful patch, perhaps? 

I already did so yesterday, nightmare 100% in Careful. I died many many times while running it. :)

http://nahkahiir.thps3.net/quake/cogs_341.dz 

I played it twice on skill 2. The first run, I used up all my ammo but for my second run, I killed all monsters except the last fiend and DK with traps or infighting.

I really liked it because it required some thought but never enough to frustrate. It also had that classic Quake - you are far from anywhere sane feel.

I did find the secret as well - worth finding for the extra scenery.

I'd like to see more maps like this. 

But I can't see Speeds wanting to make more in the same vein (am I wrong?).

It's an experiment, that worked; very well. But the type of complete change suggests you're gonna start mapping for . . . Portal? 

Definately not going to make another no-weapons/sneak map. And I believe it was just the right length - any longer would become boring, or Id need to invent some different stuff.
And I dont like valve tools 

I couldnt play a map like this any longer. Puzzles were ok, didnt require too much thought though.

Interesting variation attempt though, but it doesnt quite work as a standalone map. 

I could play stuff like this all day! Here my 1st and 2nd runs, couldn't find the secret yet.

ta Speedy.

http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/cogs_sw.7z 

I read some of the comments and got the impression it was a love or hate thing. I was surprised how well it worked, the whole sneaking past AI thing. My favourite was the shambler where you had to get two buttons and then try and crush him. With limited POV AI this style could be even more fun. I like the show and tell mechanic of some of the puzzles, it guided the operation alot better. Overall a successful experiment. :)