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Quoth - Part 2
Finally. Quoth Part 2, the base-oriented update.

http://kell.quaddicted.com

Note: the mapping tutorial is only half done. We've decided to release anyway, because it's taking too long, plus there are maps already finished that use this content and surely some more will follow.

Map sources for all the Quoth maps, including the previous pak0 maps, are downloadable from the tutorial page.

Have at it.

[edit: fixed URL]
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Features 
But you can't add a feature to quoth now either, so that's not really any different. 
Irony 
Quoth 
Seeing how much time and energy the Quoth team constantly invests in their creation, I can not imagine them disappearing some day, leaving no trace and neither the sources behind. It's a quite unrealistic fear, don't make it worry you. 
Inertia 
I have to be honest, your response was exactly the right way to be persuasive when arguing for open software. I wouldn't blame the Quoth coders right now if they were experiencing a tinge of guilt after that!

I've benefited enormously over the years from open source software, but I also have no problem with those who, as long as they are in accordance with contractual obligations, decide to keep their methods to themselves. Every artist, craftsman, coder develops their own methods that give them personal advantages, and thus, they may not be in as secure a place in their lives as a Carmack to be public about them, and, ultimately how these matters are handled are through personal choices (Que: Freedom of Choice).

It may very well be that Kell, Necros and Preach are in secret negotiations with Id to make an official Quake/Quoth expansion with an experimental Quake engine that Carmack has tooled together over his summer holiday, and releasing the QuakeC code before the commercial product is out would undermine their efforts. That is the best case scenario I could think up, but I'm just sayin' I don't assume to know all factors that are involved in their decision. 
So... 
What exactly is it that you gain by keeping the source closed? Any of the original coders cares to explain? 
Re: 2.1 Patch 
Preach:

First of all, thanks for the update! But...

I just loaded a saved game from Ricky's Slave and it still crashed when I fragged a Bob. I didn't see this issue in the list of fixes. I hope it wasn't forgotten? (Or will it work if I restart the level?) 
Inertia 
(Just imagine: "Deer Hunter XXIV, The Bobs' Revenge!".)

Well, those sorts of mods, and mods of, were all over the place a few years ago, and didn't get played much. Some of them weren't that bad, but its the ones that stuck to solid themes and did them well that have stood the test of time, pretty much like Quake itself.

jdhack - Sounds like it is the savegame, but I don't know. Try a god/notarget run on a fresh game and kill a bob to see if it crashes.

If it is the savegame maybe it can be opened in a text editor and modified somehow.

The two things I've just suggested will probably be clarified and corrected in post #286. 
Re: 285 
Mmmm... 
No 284 - Jdhack 
I have no problems playing a new game from scratch.

Must be the save-game..... 
Or Not 
 
Bob Crash 
Yeah, it must have been the save game. No problems starting from scratch. 
Save 
Yeah, the save preserves the thing that creates the bug, so I'm afraid you can only start again unless you want to delve into editing the save file itself...not recommended. 
Preach Continues To Pretend 
that he didn't see anyone ask why they're not releasing the source 
Spirit? 
Seeing how much time and energy the Quoth team constantly invests in their creation, I can not imagine them disappearing some day, leaving no trace and neither the sources behind. It's a quite unrealistic fear, don't make it worry you.

How can anyone who's been around Quake for as long as you have say anything like the above with a straight face?

(Where is FatController? Where is spawnpoint.org? What about all of stuff you have at Quaddicted where the author's harddrive died so the source code is in the abyss? When is the last time aguirRe posted here?)

That whole paragraph is a roflcopter.

As nice as Quoth is, if it is going to be closed source the funeral should be today and it should be given a proper burial.

The entire idea of mappers investing time in a closed source single player expansion kit is rotten to the core.

If Quoth was FOR the single player mapping community, the source should be released with whatever onerous restrictions the author feel are appropriate, not make people wonder if in 2012 some bug or simple but important improvement or god forbid some operating system compatibility problem with, say, a 128-bit processor or new OS or some client is impossible to fix or impossible to even investigate.

Better off taking CustEnts, Hipnotic, Rogue, Zerstorer and Lunaran's Enforcers (I'm in the Mega Enforcer fan club) plus say, the Cyberdemon mod and making an open-source enhanced single player than investing months in building maps for a mod with potentially a questionable closed-source future. 
Another Word For Closed-source Is ... 
future abandonware. 
Well, Silly Me Is Just Wasting Time Defending Someone Who Is Not Him 
It all started when people wanted to have/create entity "files" for their editors. Now it became some sort of religious open-source war?

Is having the source code to a Quake mod really worth constantly harassing its authors? And what do you think that will accomplish?

The reasons why the source code must be released sound a bit farfetched to me. Future incompatibilities? I am not a programmer, but the progs.dat seems to be quite independant from anything.

If there really is nothing but hate from some people towards a closed-source Quoth, then maybe they want to nicely convince the team to send the source to 1-2 trusted people and allow them to release it if the team vanished.

How could Quake even survive all those cruel years when its map sources were unreleased? Why didn't we just decide to bury it right away for being closed-source... 
It's Really Simple 
Releasing the source: benefits the community.
Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

As much as it would perhaps be nice to happen, I don't forsee Quoth becoming a commercial project anytime soon, so, why keep it closed? What do you gain? 
 
I agree with Jago...

the original source BELONG TO IDSOFTWARE!!!

So why many secret with a source that is original from a game? that is always possible to decompile... but i think the source should be release... could teach many other people to make there own modes!!!

and what Quoth team gain? personally i don�t like Quoth... and when base pack came and all the problem that have been I start hating more... slow game play and boring most of the monsters... so i don�t give a shit about Quoth... ID1 FOREVER!!!

but i still think u don�t have the right to keep the source doesn�t belong to Quoth anyway... is from ID. Is something like I make lots of maps for Quake and then release then under my name and sell...

we all invested time on this game and nobody was expecting to get paid right? :\

i don�t want to put more hot water in the boil... but the troth

PEACE! 
I'm Confused. 
How about it's their decision and the rest of you fuck off?

I mean seriously, regardless of the reasoning behind it, they've decided not to release the source. What is attacking them going to achieve?

Not releasing the source: benefits noone.

From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions. How do I get it to compile? What does this bit mean? Please help me add retardedly stupid feature X to your mod?

More importantly, remembering that this is meant to be a solid and consistent base for mappers and players alike, there's not going to be multiple versions floating around with 2 or 3 variables tweaked or 1 shitty monster added. When you release a Quoth map, you know it will work with the version of Quoth that everyone else has (it's the same as yours).

But why should the authors have a say? Oh yeah, wait, it's their mod. Shit. So all of this is beside the point, really, isn't it? 
Fribbles 
"From the author's point of view I can actually see a number of benefits. For example, nobody is going to hassle them continually with annoying questions."

I can bet releasing the source is going to stop the most annoying question of them all, that being the "When are you releasing the source?" question.

I do aknolwedge the author's right to release/not release the source as he/they see fit, it is after all, indeed their own work and they don't "owe" the community anything. However, when the game engine and the game .qc code is open source, I find it very morally and ethically questionable to release derivative works as closed source.

When it comes to engine modifications, such behaviour is prohibited by the GPL, however the .qc code does not come with GPL's requirements, making it perfectly legal to not release the source to modified .qc code. Being perfectly legal however, in no way, shape or form makes it a morally right thing to do. 
I Think It's Shitty That Everyone Demands The Source 
I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source. And DEFINATELY NOT IN THIS FORUM!!!

You may aswell chop your own head off and mount it on a spear to ward people off. Cant you imagine the beating it would take.

Besides the point, why can't people enjoy Quoth for what it is? I'm sure that if the guys ever announce that it is finished then they will release the source. If if they stop developing it. Until that time comes why should they release the source?!?!?

Everyone here who is hating on Preach and Kell needs a cold shower.

Trinca / Other haters - What the hell do you care if the source is released. Are you planning a mod?!!! You're just jumping on another "lets bash Quoth/Kell" train.

Kell - Preach : I personally feel embarassed for the way you are treated. Nice mod. :) 
Releasing Source Code Is A Double Edged Sword. 
Just look at the trillions of new Quake engines that have been released, all promising to add amazing new features to Quake but actually just doing the same [usually ugly] shit over and over again. Obviously it gives the community a lot more options, but to be honest when the choice comes down to "Which spangly new Engine makes me want to puke less!?", is that really such a good thing?

Okay I'm exaggerating a little, but I still think it's a valid fear for somebody who's invested countless hours of their free time creating something. They don't want to see it being raped -- which it will be, at the VERY least once.

Having said that, I would like to get my hands on Quoth so that I can start work on my AMAZING new Quake mod, 'Quath'. It's going to knock everybody's socks off. I don't want to give too much away right now incase anybody steals my amazing ideas, but as a teaser let's just say there's going to be a new type of Enforcer that shoots Shamblers out of his cock. 
It's The Attitude 
"It's miiiine, ALLL MIIIIIINE!"

Now how would you feel if ID didn't release the mapping tools and the engine source? It is after all, their own work, right? I bet you would still take your "business" (mapping interests) elsewhere. 
Personally 
I think the open source debate is a good one, and it's very healthy to question the pros and cons of it.

It only becomes repugnant when Open-Source-Fanboys start moralizing and harassing. There is no 'right' answer, so ultimately the decent thing to do is respect an author's personal discretion. They're hardly going to want to give their creation to the community as a gift if they feel they've been bullied in to it. 
Open Source Isn't About Modding Something 
It's about the assurance that time in invested in something doesn't go down the shitter.

Case in point, that one RickyT23 map in December that was awesome and then didn't work with Quoth2.

@ RickyT23

I mean if I had made a mod like Quoth I wouldnt want to release the source.

It's a long tradition of releasing the source code for things actually meant to benefit "the community".

Quake's original code: released
Hipnotic: released
Rogue: released
Zerstorer: released
Cust Ents: released

2 years ago I was told by someone who had heard that when Quoth was "done", the source would be released. I'll ask him sometime what the source of that information was.

My point ISN'T that the Quoth source should be released.

My point IS that if the Quoth source isn't going to be released, I think people should invest their time in something else that has an assured continuity.

Having green and red enforcers available isn't really special enough to support a dead-end mod.

Yes, that is slight over simplification of what Quoth does but I've seen the killer results of closed source stuff enough in Quake it blows my mind people still are willing to hang themselves with that rope. 
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