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too tired to say much... nice work. this is a solid release. I was hurt a little bit by not finding the plasma gun until later exploration. I guess this was my own fault for not trying all routes, though.
As I betatested this level I was rather quick impressed by the precious texture and brush work. I was amazed by the large scale the map had, as well as the straight lined subdiveded parts. The way the game enfolds is good, small amounts of monsters in cascade with some though hard fights.
The way you constructed the two marine bases in each other with the cave part was something that impressed me. The feeling of a once excisting mine bridge, caught in a missile debree. Really liked the hydraulic lightning session. And again... not finished playing this release, but sureley a winner to me. I've experimented lately with an old botcam feature called Kascam, e.g. included in the Omicron bots. The botcam will automatically produce a "recammed" version if you use it for recording demos. I've now made a demo of this map on Hard in god mode, with Kascam operating the camera: http://user.tninet.se/~xir870k/thehand_kascam.7z .
The demo is in std Q1 protocol 15 format, but due to an oversight of mine it requires 4096 edicts support, which not all engines have. Any of my engines, Fitz (if you up the edict limit), DP and possibly others will do, but e.g. JoeQ won't (limited to 2048). Sorry about this. You'll first see the Kascam client idling for a while, waiting for me to come in and then the action should begin. The intention of the demo is to show off the Kascam feature in this big and monster dense map. I hope you'll like it! ... and I liked it a lot.
I will not list what others said, as I agree with them: globally it is visible you made a lot of effort on brushwork. I think also gameplay could have been refined, it is quite hard sometimes to survive to spawning hordes, except if you know what will happen.. Nothing special concerning lightning effects.. Anyway, I had a good moment of fun, and I will look forward your next release ;) Keep it up !! I played it with the telejano engine and quoth mod. It played perfectly with no bugs or problems. I played on the hardest level and saved frequently. It was a BLAST. I loved it from the opening and didn't want it to end.
I prefer base maps, lots of secrets and lots of monsters. This map delivered. Cannot wait to play your next(hopefully, another base map please) map. Slaine This map is so good, how are you ever going to top it?
I played this on hard again, but this time binding impulse 250 to 9 ;) It was hard. But I like hard maps as hard. Very challenging, barely managed. The play-testing and feedback from multiple beta-testers definitely shows. Back in 2005 when Quoth first game out, I didn't like it at first. Possibly because I didn't have a familiarity with it or possibly because some of the earlier Quoth maps felt like they used Quoth characters for the sake of using them. But the last several Quoth maps have been fantastic. Maybe every Quoth map released in 2007. The extra characters, powerups and functions add so much depth and diversity to maps and it sure beats seeing out-of-place Ogres in base maps like old school maps use. I quite liked the last one, but this one is markedly better in pretty much every area. No more confusion as to where to go, much more balanced gameplay thats a blast and very nice visuals, especially the texturing.
Lighting was perhaps the only area which could have been slightly better, although I didnt play with the lit file, just regular quake but it didnt quite suit the texturing in some spots. Otherwise, great stuff. Keep it up. ok, finally had time to play properly!!! still think in hard is to hard!!! have a lot of fucking boring fights to many hard guys in same place, far away boring fights:\ always spawning stuff :\ errr hated!!!
Normal is more acceptable but still boring Brushwork is outstanding!!! love it a lot!!! Note! When i beta tested just had a version... so after silver key door didn�t had that part... So my final note is brushwork is really amazing 9/10!!! But game play still crappie in my opinion... spamming from behind with no warnings? errr this is in underground with kell textures!!! The vore... spawn behind us... man please put some messages... fucking unfair! I still hate your game play on hard... sorry fill me up with lots of frustration! gameplay 5/10 anyway thks for this lovely map Nice map. Thanks. This is the most i've enjoyed a quoth map.. It was great finding the secret at the end and launching down on the two bosses (you can do some damage to those things up close with the shovel, too!). Must have re-played it that scene a dozen times on normal and hard..
The long corridor before the end was pretty tough.. probably a dozen goes. It's _alwyas_ cool finding cave levels beneath bases. Awesome when you blow up the entrance. I don't know how gameplay would be without finding the plasma gun straight away (and still hate looking at that penis model. Has anyone redone it?) Taking home aguiRe's kascam demos to try out. hi, where do I find golden key please? somewhere in the underground room with ceiling laser-shooters? I gave up searching after 15 minutes... Good to have so many plasma clips, I didnt have to save my ammo. Most of the corridors and rooms look superBly.
When you make your way back out of the underground area and re-enter the part of the map at the top of the large outside staircase, procede past the top of the stairs round to the room where you originally found the silver key. Here a button has been uncovered. Press the button to extend the bridge over to the Gold Key Room. Carry on through the Silver Key Room, out the door you should be in the area where you found the Nailgun, you can either turn right or cross the room to the Gold Key Door. Turn right, then right again, onto the area where the first enforcer was stood of the whole level! You should now see a fully extended bridge allowing you to cross to the Gold Key Room Area - shoot soldiers, go down lift, empty the 'Arena' area of monsters - this unlocks a lift which takes you up to the Gold Key Room - Key is at the top of this lift...
Found that already, thanks for description though. Must have missed the button in Silver Key Room during my first attempt to beat your level. The underground complex near the end (Arena area as you call it) is brilliant and tough to survive, now I know I HAVE TO save my plasma ammo clips. It was fun to empty your level :). I like the way Quoth monsters were included. Plus you got one bonus point from me for the titlename.
RickyT23 dont be mad with me ;) is just my opinion... maby i�m a fucking noob... but i think you use to many heavy monsters that slow the gameplay a lot!!! i use to do that also... but in brushwork i�m miles from you... keep it up! one of these days i might finish on hard... but honestly i get borred after a wile :(
I played it today and it's really impressive and I enjoyed it a lot, though it was a bit hard on skill2 (I died several times). A lot better than sick base.
I finished on Hard skill and this is a meaty romp. It's a struggle for the first fifth or so and then feels more balanced as weapons are gathered and supplies appear in greater supply.
This huge map really feels like Quake 2 and not SPQ1 in looks and gameplay. That's good BTW. Coloured lights are appropriate and the map looks good with a unique style. It's quality. I only thought the one lava tex deep below was ugly and I spotted a few minor misalignments but nothing to detract from enjoying this sprawling - multi-chaptered level. There were some cool light FX near the underground generator. The caves were well built too. I found all 6 secrets on my own but about 4 were found after I cleared the map - very nice variety and all were fair and satisfying to find in such a big map. Nice map - hoping to play more. Finally got around to playing this properly in Quoth. Skill 2, knew the map layout, and had got 1/2 way through on Quoth previously.
Pretty tough map all the way I found. Not unbalanced but just tough. Got me thinking about gameplay a bit, because sometimes it felt like it was straying from the realms of fun into the realms of gruelling. Like Warpspasm it has sodding loads of monsters, although there's never too much at any one point. The sheer numbers might be part of the issue, it's a lot of gameplay to get through in one go. I did have issues with ammo (given I knew what was coming up, also knew the Quad and nail runs, and am fairly cautious, I think it might be a fair point...). Just felt - even towards the end - that I often got too much into the red, especially in the weaker ammos. Which never feels that encouraging. Partly I think this is due to the number of "ammo-sink" Quoth monsters (rocketeers - quite a few shells for little reward; grenade enforcers - need to take em down from a distance; drones - suck up a LOT of ammo with their dodging; vorelings - easy to waste stuff on). Thing is, in a map this size, when you end up getting the more hardcore weapons (SNG, RL, anything cells), chucking in more ammo in general can make it too easy due to the ease of use of heavy weapons. Although in this map, I was often using plasma because I'd run out of shells!! So I thought of two options that would have helped the ammo situation: Firstly have a few more "easier" secrets with just standard supplies in. Thus allowing a struggling player to stop, work back and hopefully find something to help out, but also allowing others to blast through. Secondly have additional "innappropriate" ammo supplies next to some combats. For example, throw in some rockets near a load of grunts - the player might be tempted to make that combat easier but will lose the ammo drops. Or shells next to Vores, giving the choice of a harder combat or an easier one. Hmmm I'm not explaining it so well. I guess I'm thinking of a situation where there is more ammo around, but it's not just shells (useful to bulk supplies without making things too easy, but boring!!), but nor is it so the player can rely on the more powerful weapons... BTW, it was a good map. Impressive all round. And great having the underground bit in, well themed. I think some areas could do with more details though, to match the rest. Quoth monsters in general are tougher health-wise than the standards, the only exception being Drole - Shambler.
It's the sort of thing that couldn't be modified (in Quoth2, say) because it'd unbalance too many existing maps. But consider the Dog compared to the Voreling and the fact that the Voreling has its additional hiding on the ceiling behavior. They're both fun to kill but if you'd never played the game before and came up against one and then the other the difference in balance would be much more obvious than to a veteran Quaker. You make a very inciteful point (<=if that aint how you spell "inciteful" I give up!). It is hard for me to judge how a player is going to react to a map when playing it for the first time!! I mean christ - the first time a I played The Bile Plant, I died repeatedly, and that was on normal skill!!! I still enjoyed the map though, and progressing through is was still rewarding, due to the fantastic exploration factor of such a well spread out map!
Some of my testing was done by Sielwolf, who still claimed the map was too easy, and also too much combat always coming from the front, which is why I put some nasty ambushes in... That guy is REALLY good at Quake. He sent me a couple of demos for the Sickbase, both NH, one from the original 'cut' and one from the 'current' version, and to be frank, the guy's a FUCKING MACHINE!!! Watching the demos made me feel SICK!!! He told me not to post them on func... :-( I still have them tho ;-) Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!! Atleast I can do it on NIGHTMARE, which is more than could be said for anyone else it would seem :( If you ever play on skill 1, you would notice less of the Quoth human enemies, and more enforcers and grunts instead. Also a lower overall monster count! It still seems quite hard though! I dunno... I do want people to have FUN! I am also very wary of making it too easy, just read the posts for Deja Vu, and you'll see why!! With this map I tried to make sure that there was a fair space to maneouvre atleast!! I feel if I made it a bit easier, I would have gotten more demos to watch! As for the point about the details in the map being more in some areas and less in others - well I could have put more details in, but it wouldnt have run in Fitzquake - yes, sorry guys but this level is RIGHT ON a few engine limits, literally two more Marksurfaces and I would be over the limit of 30000-odd!!! I already used all of my precache models too, so using any more func_walls was out of the question! Doh! Played this on S2 and while it was pretty difficult (I died maybe twice) I didn't have any bigger problems with ammo. However, due to some strange bug I was suddenly unable to switch to Plasma (using "next weapon"). So I had to run through some 20-30 enemies without killing any before walking through the GK door where I was able to find some ammo. After this, I was able to choose Plasma again. Strange.
Yeah it is a difficult balancing act:
Anyway, what Im saying is that guys like that - I didnt want to miss them out! I tried to cater for all tastes. Skill 2/3 on my last two maps (it would seem) are for the CRACK-SHOT ADVANCED GAMERS amongst us!! This is the problem, as Quake goes on, the general skill level of Quakers goes up but also, I think, gets stretched. There are still people who play on Easy, I think, and definitely people who play on Normal. As well as people who play on Hard and Nightmare (Nightmare is a fucking duff skill anyway though isn't it). Catering too all tastes, not easy. Compared to maps throughout Quake history, one needs to very gradually increase the skill level, but maintain enough expanse of skill settings to be accessible to almost all players. But then there's only 3 real skills. It's like: Original Quake skill - nu skill skill 0 - n/a 1 - n/a 2 - 0 n/a - 1 n/a - 2 Basically playing original Id maps on Hard is the equivalent of most modern maps on Easy, maybe. Or maybe there is only one step difference, but there definitely is a difference and so there should be due to that skill increase and thus player demands. The problem being, there simply aren't enough higher skills for people like Siewolf etc. So the skills get compressed into each other. Nu-skill 2 might cover old-skill 3 & 4 (ignoring nightmare). Which is a fairly broad band, bit too easy for Sielwolf, a bit too hard for Shambler. I play on Skill 2 in general and I'd say 80-90% of the time that works and is just right (or like Kell's map a bit easy). Sometimes it's a bit too hard, but then if I was on skill 1, it would be a bit too easy for most of the time. This is partly why I'm thinking of solutions that enable players to deal with the tougher skill without making it too easy for hardcore players. Plenty of weaker ammo (allowing players to resort to a cautious grind approach) is the obvious option but that's only shells really. Maybe extra GA too. I think more low-reward secrets are also a good idea, hardcore players don't need to put the effort into finding them, but lesser players can hunt them down if needed. Or someone needs code skills 3(not Nightmare),4,5 in...
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