thanks for your comments, those were exactly some of the reactions I was kind of hoping for, trying to start some discussion on good secret/puzzle ideas and their use. I knew this speedmap would produce a bunch of frustrating/nonsensical maps, and was hoping for a lot of neat innovation. I believe we got some of both, so I'm very happy how this SM turned out.

I myself kinda wanted to map, I had originally had the idea of building a 'normal' map, but the layout lead to a dead end, and all the secrets within the map would slowly open the bars over the door that would be located at the start. Winning the map, by reliezing there is no way to beat it and just saying 'fuck it, I'm going back to the previous map.' :) 

Hrims was tight.
Negike's looked cool, but frustrated me. Still fun though.
Generics I really enjoyed until the very end - i missed the platform. Not sure if it was going to come back, but whatever.
Voodoo and Tron were kind of what I expected, but fun anyways. I think you guys should keep at it, because it seems like all of us are getting a bit better with each new map.
I felt like my map was rather weak. I wanted to add more gameplay but gave up on that because of time issues. Not that I'm a 100 minutes or bust purist or anything. I just had to go, and wouldn't be back before today.
Good pack, and thanks for the input guys.
ps - scampie, I like your idea. 

Aguire - The Ng passage happened to be a fluke. Didn't notice it until after I'd loaded the map up to Scampie. It must bug you that basically all of my maps leak, huh? 

At last I managed to beat Drew's map after several tries. It looks like I overlooked that the button after the pent opened another door than the one I expected 8-/ well my bad.

I think all the maps was nice given the time limit. And NO! I didn't stay to the limit had to much fun mapping to stop when the 100 mins was up. Then after a few hours I got boooored of the whole thing placed the silvercard and and just rushed the last outdoor area tossed some monsters into it and called it a map.

It's funny to read the comments. Looks like one man's logic is another man's frustration!

AguirRe what was that about timing events at the end? Something I did wrong?

I played my map again sunday and to my surprise
it had 5 secrets noted at the intermission. I found that strange since there only are 4 secrets in the map so I loaded the mapfile today and found that there are two trigger_secrets to the silvercard button!
And more there are two buttons as well.

What has happend is that I had placed a button in the map to the silverdoor but only as a placeholder until I found the right place to hide it. I swear I remember to have deleted the placeholder when the "real" button was placed, but alas it is still present so there are two ways to open the silvercarddoor, and one of them is before you find the way into the goldcard and know where the silvercard gate is 8-(.
Oh well it's only a speedmap!!

That's all for now! 

strange but good pack.
The first place goes to voodoochopstiks for a) making a monsterfree map, b) for makink labyrinth there.
The rest was good, couldn't find what to do in the begining of neg!ke's map 

The problem I had with your map was this. After some initial good combat, I started looking for a way out and there was a platform, a locked-in GK and a button that required the GK. OK, first I couldn't find anything (except the GL) for a looong time, then finally managed to hit a secret panel. It said "You can now get the SK!" twice, with some minor variation (this was probably your dual-in-one secret).

What's wrong with this? 1) I wasn't looking for a SK, I was looking for a way to get to the GK. 2) I didn't even know there was a SK anywhere and 3) nor did I know what to do with it, as there was no SK door anywhere in that area. Logically, you should find the door first, then go looking for the key and only then you find a way to get to the key which opens the door (which btw should lead to something desired, like the exit or rune etc).

Then, after these weird messages, I had to use QuArK to find the very hidden button for the GK. OK, now I actually saw the SK (still no door in sight), had some more good combat and then dead stop again. Then I recalled, I haven't even used the GK yet, why could I proceed to the SK without using it? OK down again, used the GK and some more good combat. The stair button was now revealed (although its purpose was unclear) and the platform (which I had tried numerous times before, hoping it would work) was now finally functional.

Some close enforcer encounters and then halt again. After another long search I had to use QuArK again to find the route. I'd noticed the thin yellow striped brush before, but since nothing was beneath it, I just thought it would extend into something after finding the trigger. OK, dropped down and pushed another button. At this time I was really confused so I forgot even what this was supposed to open (the wind tunnel) and couldn't see anything from in there. It's always good if you can see the effect of your actions immediately or via a clear message.

Using QuArK again, finding the now open wind tunnel and up to the waiting ogres and great combat for a few seconds. Then there's a teleporter ... taking me back where I started. What was this for? OK nevermind, through the SK door and outside for some wickedly intense and fun fights that almost wiped me out before the last ones were grounded (or so I thought). Exit stairs appeared and I stumbled to the top.

For a moment I halted a the top, saw the still closed exit and ran down to find what I had missed. Suddenly a vore teleported in behind me and and had to be dealt with. Again, a strange pause while the exit was still closed, the final shamblers came in and then the exit opened. I can see now that you just wanted surprise effects, but at the time it felt like misfiring triggers.

The overall impression was that 99% of the time was spent in the map hopelessly looking for ways to progress (and failing repeatedly to do so), while the good combat was reduced to almost nothing. This in a map that was otherwise very good-looking and with mostly well-designed fights. I just thought that the map deserved a better balance. 

Re: aguirRe's above post.

Actually, yes, I can completely understand aguirRe's experience and frustration.

I think the two reasons I didn't feel the same way about the map, despite some similar ( though not identical ) events to aguirRe's run are:

1) I liked the design of the map. I enjoyed being in it; the use of the textures, lighting, funcs and so on. So I didn't feel it was a drag spending so much time in it.
2) The layout for most of it was simple without actually being a fullbright box. It didn't take me long to learn where stuff was, and I could see most of the room from most of the room. So there was a clear limitation on where an objective or consequences of an objective were. And as I say, wandering around to find them didn't take long enough to bore me.

aguirRe's points about the logic of the events is true: a key really ought not to be encountered before the corresponding door, otherwise - as metlslime observed in the old 'golden rules of SP mapping' thread - the door has never actually blocked the player's progress and thus required a diversion to acquire the key.


These things I put down to both the theme and it being a speedmap in general.
It's also worth noting that some of the secrets - throughout the pack - may be easier to 'decode' if the player is also a mapper. It occured to me after Trinca's post that neg!ke's direction dependent teleporter is a major example of this. Player's are unlikely to know, nor should they be expected to know, the technical functionality of map entities.

I still stand by my previous comments, of course: I did enjoy the maps.

2/- 

try to find something to shoot at the beginning... 

Just as I thought.

then finally managed to hit a secret panel. It said "You can now get the SK!" twice, with some minor variation (this was probably your dual-in-one secret).

Yes and you found the wrong SK button that wasn't deletet due to WC crash after I had removed it once!

Logically, you should find the door first, then go looking for the key and only then you find a way to get to the key which opens the door (which btw should lead to something desired, like the exit or rune etc).

I totally agree! And that would have been the case if the damn button wasn't there.

Then I recalled, I haven't even used the GK yet, why could I proceed to the SK without using it?

You shouldn't and couldn't if not for the wrong button.

I forgot even what this was supposed to open (the wind tunnel) and couldn't see anything from in there. It's always good if you can see the effect of your actions immediately or via a clear message.

Sure and I am to blame for not putting the text in the messagebox aI intented and thought about but forgot, sorry!!

used the GK and some more good combat. The stair button was now revealed (although its purpose was unclear)

Well at least this button clearly says "The lift is working" or something like that.

Then there's a teleporter ... taking me back where I started. What was this for?

To bring you back to get the SK to the SK door up there! 8-)

For a moment I halted a the top, saw the still closed exit and ran down to find what I had missed. Suddenly a vore teleported in behind me and and had to be dealt with. Again, a strange pause while the exit was still closed,

This one I can't explain? When I walk up the stairs the vore teleports in just as I reach the last step theres no timing/delay involved, it's an instant teleport. The same goes for the shamblers they appear right as I walk up to the last step after killing the vore. Something is amis here I don't know what!

What all this leads to is that your misfortunate gameplay was ruind by the fact that there was a wrong SK button in the map and you happend to find it as the first thing!
and I forgot to put a message in the button to the windtunnel!

If the Wrong SK button wasn't there then all you would have been able to find on the first tier of the room was the GL (as you did) and the button to the GK.

Then you would have to use the GK in order to proceed to the second tier.

Here you would have to make the drop to open the windtunnel!

Then you would ride the tunnel to the SK door
find you missed the SK and return to get it - or you would have found it when you opend the wind tunnel.

Kell: aguirRe's points about the logic of the events is true: a key really ought not to be encountered before the corresponding door,

I agree and tried to make it so but as explained above the wrong button at the wrong place!

Kell: These things I put down to both the theme and it being a speedmap in general.

Right so! Even though I went over the 100 mins I still had to work wery fast in order to finish the map as fast as possible.

Kell: It's also worth noting that some of the secrets - throughout the pack - may be easier to 'decode' if the player is also a mapper. It occured to me after Trinca's post that neg!ke's direction dependent teleporter is a major example of this. Player's are unlikely to know, nor should they be expected to know, the technical functionality of map entities.

8-) I thought the same thing when I went throug the gate and was back at the start. As a mapper I knew what was going on but I wasn't sure all players would figure it out.

Now this has been some long posts about a stupid speedmap but not in vain I think.The events show how important it is to have some playtesters on the bigger maps!

AguirRe! If I make a fixed version just for you, will you promise not to ban me from using your tools? 8-)
I couldn't live without them!

Point taken but I can't promise that it won't happen again! 

i finally finished neg!ke's map. It was cool. Especially those 3 light marked buttons.

We need some more unusual projects! 

Drew can't remember. Oh wait, I remember it now, was pretty nice, I like the way up to the pent, that was cunning, nice style too.

Voodoos simple but nice enough.

Trons nice and easy.

Hrim's frustrating in one part since I spent ages looking for the fucking silver key button. Easy and fun apart from that.

Neg!ke's worst map ever, I couldn't make any sense of it even with all the cheats available. Not only unplayable but anti-playable.

I agree with whoever said that this shows why secrets shouldn't be part of gameplay. I mean it's a fun theme but actually playing them was pretty fucking shit really. 

A theme more fun to map for then to play?
Scampie should be happy with that one. 

Hehe, just keep on making maps any way you want to. Don't mistake my comments for being anything else than just - comments. You don't have to apologize for not making perfect maps in a limited timeframe in your free time.

My comment about disappointment or frustration was only related to that I felt that this was basically a good map, but pulled down by some minor gameplay issues.

I've noticed that before in other maps that sometimes pretty small things that the mapper probably didn't even spend much time on (compared to all other aspects), can actually have an unreasonably large impact on how the map is experienced while playing it.

That is, it appears that there's no obvious relation between the amount of work to create it and the apparent impact on using it (here the playing experience). This is a bit ungrateful and it feels frustrating.

As Scampie said, these threads are about discussion and feedback, not approval or popularity contests. Please keep on producing material and we have something to discuss. 

have to put this shit on a stick and play at home now that the computer is booting up again... I don't think speedmaps have generated so much discussion and such long comments for a while. 

I thought my first ever speedmap was the the worst map ever. Damn, I been downgraded lol :) 

"anti-playable" sounds nice. this probably means i totally succeded in fulfilling the theme!
i thought it was quite clear that such a theme would bring frustating gameplay, so everybody would know setting cl_patience to at least 2 or 3 was necessary. :D
i expected the maps to be like this (although only hrim's map occupied me for longer) - that's why i didn't grow bored immediately.

maps' goals really shouldn't be archivable through secrets only (except for clever 'puzzles'), indeed, but on the other hand a little more thinking between the usual rampage can't be that bad, either - if there are the appropriate hints, of cause. 

Do a demo of neg!kes. 

http://starship.python.net/crew/mwh/s104z_mwh.dz

I fuck up and die after about 8 and a half minutes, but don't really feel like trying again. You should get the idea, anyway :) 

this is not the way it's supposed to be played. your demo makes it look harder than it actually is. (gibbing the zombies with the vore balls is a clever idea, though)

shambler, here is a more proper demo:
http://home.arcor.de/negative/files/sm104ke.dz 

Well, now you have another idea for the next time you want to be horrible to the player.

(I did think getting the zombies in the water with voreballs was nearly impossible without godmode). 

When I saw your first post above, I suspected that you didn't find the RL and tried to kill the zombies with vore balls. I actually had the same idea before I found the RL, but then I'd already killed the vores ... 

I don't know why I never really looked for an rl or gl... seemed too straightforward, perhaps :) 

After seeing the demo, that truely was an evil map. I'm kind of glad I gave up on that one hehe. 

yes i did, and with no cheats... i gotta give myself props for that!!!111 

the maps were fun-tastic :D
the ebon map took the most time to complete along with that base map where you have to pay attention to crates ;)

the doom themed one was pretty cool too. has a plus for funky textures :)