When I'm playing Quake, it's Quake versus me.
I'm the one who beats every monster one by one, and even try to be polite by crossing a knight with my axe.
I think it's not fare to lame him with a gun, behold the soard!

The colourshift also apeared in the JoeQuake demo's.
I rarely play other than QuakeClassic.
The last demo the effect wasn't there, as I saw you used Fitzquake, which I prefer.
Really hadn't tried it out on other engines, as I was rarely enlightened by necros and Telejanos.
I'm still fond of this engine, especially the mini version. Great to see the lavaballs with their spectrum of colours. I was really surprised at that time, as I never saw coloured light before in Quake.

As you played it so edged, I wondered if I you would suceed to reach the bridge, hanging out there. Earlier mandel made just the good jump to get over it, which I couldn't believe as the gap is about 288 units.
The maximum distance that a player can jump and not fall into lava is 225 units.
But as this is a slope, which has an outstretch of 64 units below it could be possible. Reason I took 60 units more.

I saw the clip at easter last year, it's made in Brussels.
I once went egghunting that way, it is a beautiful monument. If you stand under it, there is a sense of an exterrial force.
It was my inspiration to make a giant fluor shape in WitchCraft. 

there's some very good ideas in here layout wise and some nice designs too, but I have to say a lot of it felt a bit random as well. Not quite sure what it is but something felt off.

And I hated Bones, used too much and I found it annoying.

Very interesting effort though. 

new demo on skill 0. sparcus10.

http://www.quaketastic.com/upload/files/demos/gbveni2.zip

I finished the map this time (ok got killed by granito, he isn't "easy" in the slightest).

It is good that you put more health and ammo in easy.

Still I think it wasn't really "Easy". I would classify it as between medium and hard, actually. "Easy" is grandmother skill! This map should only have around 60 monsters on Easy - remember, untrained players should be able to "easily" finish on skill 0.

The way to get the gold key was almost like a secret - too easy to miss.

Placement of quad and pent was bad.

It was often not clear where to go.

Anyway, you'll see in the demo what the problems are. It's good that it was rebalanced, but Easy should still be easier.

I still find it unfair that crossbow knights make no sound when firing. 

I didn't find Granito to be overly hard. Though maybe he was changed after the beta or I don't remember correctly. Did you find the secret in his arena? 

i didn't find any secrets in the granito arena.
i didn't find it hard, but his lightning attack is unavoidable and there is no cover. this puts a cap on how long you have to kill him entirely dependent on how much health and armor you have when you jump into the pit.

when i did it, i had full health and the RA and granito blasted off almost all (or all?) of the armor by the time i killed him.
if you jumped in there with half health though, or no armor, the fight would likely be impossible i guess? 

The thing is that Granito isn't suited to the "Easy" skill.

He might not be too hard on "Hard", but he is on "Easy".

Maybe a centerprint:

"Granito thinks you are too weak to fight him"

"Come back when you're stronger"

No, I didn't see a secret in his arena. 

@nitin - I must say I really apreciate your comments, as they gave me the feeling I did something right. On the other hand I'm not really glad with what I done, as it assures me I did something wrong.
Your comment accentuates my feeling of making a map twice. Maybe I misused bones a bit.., must be my enthousiasm.

@gb - you're a die-hard. Don't know what it is.
I understand youre comment, and it helps me understand what is going on playing the game.
I surely need you as beta player.
The balancing between the pent and the squad have something to do with the way you play.
When reaching out to all there is, there might be a chance later on in game you'll miss some care.
There is no use taking the squad and pent at once going down the cave. I thought the squad more usefull going in the last part.
But I won't let off players to get their items.
OK, they could have been placed better.

Gold key has a pronounced light.

Where's your sense of explorement?
Does everything has to be straight from A to B?
I tried adding arrows but reached max_planes.
I watched you up in the cave tracing the dxf file as you thought it a strange effect.
I couldn't hide it behind the wall as dxf models need to placed in open area's.

I still think it reasonable a crossbow HAS sound when he shoots.

@ neg!ke - I don't have the knowhow to make Granito act different in several skill paths.There is a way to do it, but I was already glad it run.

@ necros - I had a grid in top of the ceiling. but I textured it off, as it was much to easy to leave the fight.
I also deleted the megahealth, so it plays a little harder.
The best way to survive is to use the squad for last.
Others secrets are mostly cliffhangers on the side of the buildings.
I marked some with teleporter tex. 

@gb - you're a die-hard. Don't know what it is.

heheh. That is true in more than one way.

Maybe I'm simply deaf. I paid attention to the crossbow guys and simply didn't hear a firing sound. 

oh you definitely did quite a few things right, but equally there are a number of things that could be done better too.

More maps coming? 

@gb - I must say you touch a special feeling in me.
Like going to a restaurant and getting a free meal, and then start complaining about the service. The music is too loud, and the coffee is cold.
I don't mind, and I need it. Just trying to get the costumor satisfied.

Behold by Willem Tell.., the crosbow has a flushing sound.
You can hear it clear. Not at startshot no.., at moment of impact.
This looks quiet plain to me. I play guitar for a long time, but the plunge of a crossbow can't widthstand the sound of a shotgun.
If it would be the question with a soard or a gun, you would argue the woosh of the soard isn't as clear as a shotgun?
I think I missed an arrow.

@nitin - considder it as doing an act is caused by a curiosity, that envolved myselve into a state of witness as well as accomplice.
It starts with a feeling of surprise the quake-engine can create this spectecular effects.
Than it ends with the culprit to finish the thing without error and malfunction.
Something like a weary dopefish, who scatters in the sun, but drowns in its own backslash.

More maps? I get a little concerned about the time it is consuming.
The last maps were really a stroll on my attitude, and I think it was my upmost.
But, as always, there are some things behind. 

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm criticizing the free service... I'm just trying to help - I just made that new demo because you said I might want to try it again.

I'll shut up then :-) 

I don't mind, and I need it
your help apreciated!

I'm still on the crossbow thing.
Do you think my comparishing with the knight and its soard can stand?
Of course the knight is always close, so its soard you'll hear, but not as loud as a shotgun. I thought the first time you'll hear the arrow flush you would notice.

Or don't you hear no flush at all? 

i just checked, the crossbow knights do not make any sound when firing. i thought it was just because i was far away. 

That's strange. It can be that on my comp I did change something,
but I can clearly hear the cbow.wav as it is present in knight2.qc

sound (self, CHAN_WEAPON, "weapons/cbow.wav", 1, ATTN_STATIC);


It would solve the problem, as gb is telling me that from the start, and I can't find the clue.

I watched your demo, gb. Alright, mayby I'm a little coy, sorry.
That thing can be killed indeed. But when I place the pent in the last part the chances would be odd Granito would survive.

It wasn't really clear to me why you took the pent and megahealth, while you could see there were no monsters around. A player could think it would be wisely to spare some items.
Than you would have survived, I think.

Also it is a long walk, but I thought when you had catched that GK at once, the fight back wouldn't be a so easy one.

If you would have shoot the round nob in the end pit, your chances to survive would have risen dramaticly.

Thanks for the demo,
your comments were welcom! 

it is stupid, to catch a key while sitting on a pillar, I don't know. It just was there, I think.

I had the same odd feeling, when I had made Granito. Rather a rough clumb , with hardly any Quake-a-like. But as it opened the oppertuntity to change gemeplay I got used to it.

People still may think, is this a stupid joke?
In a matter of fact hellspawn is also a joke. 

(some posting without playing here, sorry)
Even when they do have a firing sound, crossbow wielding enemies in quake have always been the source of 'cheap sniping' complaints. I think it's more to do with the visual feedback.

Crossbows lack a muzzleflash - which at range is the clearest indicator a shot has been fire - and arrows are much harder to see than any projectile a regular quake monster fires. Scrags, hell knights and vores all fire brightly coloured projectiles with fullbright tracers. Even ogre grenades have a red band and smoke particle effect.

One solution, which is simple in concept but may require carefull modelling to pull off well, would be to set the crossbow bolts on fire. This would make the arrows as bright as the enforcer's lasers, although personally I'd draw the line at making them glow as well. Yet I would at least try out the ogre's smoke effect - placing the origin of the arrow model just behind the arrowhead would probably create the best visual. If you left off the glow from the arrow, then you could instead have a 'muzzleflash' as the arrow is lit.

I'm now quite tempted to go and adapt this to the harpoon-toting ogre I've had in the ideas pile, hmm... 

yea, it's partially that too, preach. but mostly it's just the lack of sound effect at all.

even if it did play a sound, keep in mind that ATTN_STATIC = 3 which is a very high attenuation. for a monster that is going to be used as a sniper, it would be better to use a much lower attenuation so that the sound could be heard at long range like ATTN_NORM (1) or even lower values such as 0.7 or 0.6. 

I get a sound most of the time with Fitz 085. I'm wondering if it's a different engine thing? The sound only plays when you're hit or a close miss. Arrows ideas here sound good. Quake's organic weapons are great, but the only time you get a good look at an arrow is pausing the game (nice arrows though, madfox). 

I only hear a sound when the bolts strike a wall.

The firing sound in Quake is the main cue that something fired at you... the first time I noticed the attenuation problem was with Quoth's rocketeers way back in the early rmq days. When they're placed at a distance and used as snipers (big maps...), you got the problem of guided rockets coming out of nowhere, because you can't hear the firing sound anymore.

The problem is the firing sound, not the hit sound.

I'm not sure if the crossbow knights in madfox' map play a sound when the bolt is fired; it's either that they don't, or that it's not loud enough / the attenuation is too high. This again creates projectiles that give you no clue that they are coming.

Of course a crossbow isn't as loud as a shotgun, but it does make a sound (a normal bow would probably be even more silent, but still makes a sound). And I think because it's only a game, the player should get a cue when something is shooting at him.

About the pent, I mainly decided to take it to drive the point home. Some players will take it, thinking that there is a fight ahead or something. It's also in a secret, so not everybody will have it in the granito fight. The only way to make sure the player has the pent is to place it in granito's arena. But then again, if you need a pent to kill a monster, it would be easier to remove the pent and just halve the monster's hitpoints. :)

My complaint about Granito is only in regard to the easy skill setting, anyway. As a monster, he is cool. 

The problem is the firing sound

Actually I just copied the enforcer code inside there, and left the enforcer/enfire.wav inside.
That I don't hear the firing is something I'm not sure of.
It's true I didn't check the firing sound, but not hearing anything was also the reason I didn't add a plunge sound.
I either didn't get a message : enforcer sound not loaded.

I know I thought about the idea how to make the crossbow launch.
And it seemed reasonable to me to make no launchsound, but then again it could be handy to make a player's attention key. The code had
sound (self, CHAN_WEAPON, "weapons/cbow.wav", 1, ATTN_STATIC);
so it should be heard on a loud range as the arrow strikes in.
In the longest shoot part on the street I couldn't hear the launch of a crossbow.

So I made something to make its attention.
More in the way Preach wrote about a burning arrow.
The front are luminating colours, the back are standard pal.
Maybe the fire dots should be more in its tail.

http://members.home.nl/gimli/flair.gif

I know the crossbow knight code is a little cranky.
I often saw it shooting with its back to me, as if the ai_face wasn't tweaked.
In regard, I think he looks better than the original knight.

Pentagram - When seeing an item my most attention is to the point if I can use it or not. There can be three items, like megahealth, pent and squad , but I think it poor to use them all the same time.
More with the idea it could be usefull when there is an end boss.

If I could, I would change Granito's behaviour in skill settings, but I haven't found the key.
I know, because Shambler also changes skill in settings. 

change Granito's behaviour in skill settings

if (skill == 0)
->do something easy
else if (skill == 1)
->do something normal
else if (skill == 2)
->do something hard
else if((skill == 3)
->do something nightmarish 

will double check whether it was when I got hit or when it fired. 

I updated again, as the amophora sizes were lost. And I added a better animation to the crossbow knigth, as he suddenly waved with its soard in painframes.

@nitin - When the arrow impact the sound is heard. I tried several times to add a launch sound, but it won't come through.
It is almost the same code as the enforcer.
I added the EF_DIM light again.

@necros - thanks for the hint, I included it in the code. There are three beats granito launches a HellNewLightning, but I think it happens only once in a round.
I don't know if it fits in well,


void() granito_beat12 =[ $beat12, granito_beat13 ]
{
if (skill == 1)
HellNewLightning();
};
void() granito_beat13 =[ $beat13, granito_beat14 ]
{
if (skill == 2)
HellNewLightning();};
void() granito_beat14 =[ $beat14, granito_beat15 ]
{

if (skill == 3)
HellNewLightning();
};
void() granito_beat15 =[ $beat15, granito_run1 ] {};


Does this mean the bold launch happens only half the time in normal as in hard, or am I wrong?

Also it is strange to see the crossbow knight shooting its arrow from its back. I searched in the ai_face but I don't know how to tell it has its bows crossed? 

well, no that's not exactly correct.

1. i'm assuming there's another call to HellNewLightning() in the frame before granito_beat12.

what's going to happen is that in skill 0 it will shoot lightning once.
in normal, it will shoot twice, once on frame 11 then again on frame 12.

on hard, it will shoot TWICE, once on frame 11 and once on frame 13.

what you need to do is use inequalities in your if checks.

frame1:
HellNewLightning();

frame2:
if (skill > 0)
HellNewLightning();

frame3:
if (skill > 2)
HellNewLightning();

now in easy, it will shoot once, in normal and hard it will shoot twice, and in nightmare it will shoot 3 times. 

I'm glad there was already a hint in the shambler.qc that
if (skill==3)
had on its count.
Otherwise it would have taken me ages to conclude it had to be somewhere there.

Now easy skill Granito don't launch bold, normal one, hard two and in nightmare skill it will be three.

On what point in the ai_face decides the monster to shoot foreward?
I ask this as I see it launch two times, front and back.