Now that's a game save scheme! 

I can see quicksaves being left out as long as the level design supported it by not making you attempt dumb shit you could die attempting. They remove most sense of danger by acting as a safety net,

AvP had no quicksaves. It was finish the map or bust. It didn't have silly sequences with smashing walls or jumping on swinging crates hanging above pits full of killer crates or any of that nonsense, it was just a dark alien hive. It made you terrified of dying, as you should be, which intensified the game incredibly for me.

Not to say that with today's long-ass modern maps that at least one or two mid-level autosaves wouldn't go amiss. 

As the next post on that forum says: "Unfortunately John, that link caught the attention of many leechers, it does not work anymore". I have a legit Daikatana CD on my desk right now tho, so I have no need for it :) 

erm, if you are an ion storm lawyer, note that I mean that in a metaphorical, hypothetical, covering-my-assical way 

Scamp nailed it. Basically, there are no excuses for not giving your player the option to save where and when she chooses to. I have a life, I don't want to structure my life around the game. Let me save and get back later. It's a game design crutch. Let it go.

The same thing with unskippable cut-scenes by the way. Hey, Shakespeare, I don't care about your shit story. Especially not the second time I have to sit through the crap voice-work and "artistic camera angles." 

That title was wrong. should read just "saves". I blame the sauce. 

the real crutch is HAVING saves. Saves may be essential for players to play the game way they want (same with pausing), but if a designer uses saves to justify his badly-balanced impossible bottleneck sniper puzzle, that's unacceptable. I shouldn't NEED to save and reload to get past some stupid challenge. 

If you're going to talk about how the player shouldn't need to save and reload, then you're not really living in reality. Humans are inherently fallible; and likewise whenever they are introduced into a system, the system inherits their fallibility. So it's impossible to design a reasonably complex game where there isn't a need to save and reload. Proper design acknowledges the risk of flaws and accounts for them (e.g. save/loading).

And that's not even touching on the issue of the subjectivity of each challenge: what I find difficult you might find easy. Should I be punished just because you have an unnatural ability to aim at individual pixels?

So no, it's not a crutch; it's a well-designed solution to a common problem. The question that is often asked is "Is there a better solution?" 

I think the solution must be decided on a case-by-case basis. Games with small, randomly generated levels have little to no need for saving and loading. Games with large, linear, humanly designed levels have a greater need.

Also, who would want to play a non-linear 80 hour RPG without saving? That would be insane. 

i'm saying that quicksaves are necessitated by the needs of the players, but shouldn't be seen by designers as license to make challenges that practically require quicksaves/quickloads. 

... saves don't kill games, games kill games. 

Obviously being able to save is necessary, it's whether having the ability to do the level in 1 second sections is a good idea or not that is at issue (though lotsaquicksaves was the only way I finished sm103_starbuck).

I've been playing a spot of Marathon 2 again these last few days which only lets you save at predefined points, and it definitely adds some tension when you get a bit low on health but aren't sure where the next save terminal is. It also adds to the tedium when you get corwardly and scurry back to the last save term before you dare going into the next room.

As people have been saying, the level design needs to take the saving possibilities into account, and quicksaving frequently being all but mandatory means the level sucks. 

One of the best save systems I've come across was in Eternal Darkness. You can save anywhere during general exploration, but not when there are enemies in the room are just before/during certain set-piece sequences.

Worked very well. Trying to save and being told "The darkness is near, you cannot save." was a good tension builder.

For Quake, I find it essential. Practising a trick that takes two seconds to perform just wouldn't be worth it if you had to play for 5 minutes before hand every time. 

In quake I try to resist the temptation to quicksave in the middle of a battle - it trivialises the combat a bit imo. 

Well, I try not to save (or quicksave) too much when I play a map.. It essentially depends of the difficulty: the more a map is difficult (according to skill setting), the more I save game... it's obvious... At least I try to save between big fights, not during big fights... and when I'm too short in ammo/health as well (security saving here !)...
Well, maybe it's obvious, but it has to be said... 

I play a lot worse when I load a save and encounter the monsters the second time. I don't care to play so precisely anymore. Even when I know where they are and what will happen next, I always lose more health because of impatience and carelesness. I'm kinda bored then already, and the game goal is no more to survive and explore (which I think is mostly the goal on the first run) and but to just run as quickly as possible. 

gimme the top three q3a duel maps, I crave me some good shootin an lootin. 

Lun3DM4
RPG3DM2
q3dm17 

q3dm17 is crap for duelling, ztn3tourney1 is probably better. Or maybe hub3aeroq3 or whatever it's called, it doesn't look very nice though. 

maybe its me, but i require lots of new and exciting stimuli, very frequently, to remain interested in a level...

I'm kinda bored then already, and the game goal is no more to survive and explore (which I think is mostly the goal on the first run) and but to just run as quickly as possible.

i can totally relate to that 

Yes. Teh joke. 

check your mail 

Lun3DM4
RPG3DM2
q3dm17

Wait. how many of those are sarcastic? :( 

ALL OF THEM! 

More votes for lun3dm4 and ztn3tourney1. I haven't played and/or don't remember R.P.G.s map--sorry, the early onset of senility is a bitch. :( Dead Souls by Glassman is one I liked as well, and Grindall 2.0 by Quaker-X kicks ass, but might be a tad big for tourney, depending on your tastes...

Of course I can't resist pimping my own stuff. Depending on how cramped you like your playing field:

pjw3tourney2 - pretty open
pjw3tourney3 - pretty close
pjw3quickie4 - ridiculously insanely asses-and-elbows tight