Antediluvian

http://www.planetquake.com/underworld/index.html

very nice map indeed. :) 

unless you've defeated ballos... 

Anyone know the story with quakeworld.nu? I haven't been able to get to it in weeks, it seems. 

Servers have been hacked at some point during the summer, that's all I know. 

the old fashion way, and I get nada but weird static. Someone really buried that site.

An odd thing to note as well, there were a few days last year that I could not directly link to _Func, but when I went through a link to a discussion thread in the Quakeblog that Megazoid was running at the time, it came up fine. I've tried old links to threads like that for Quakeworld.nu and have not had any success. 

because I can't even access the Google cached pages of quakeworld.nu; they're just empty. 

http://www.tomshardware.com/game/20050902/easier_games-01.html

Tom's Hardware has a nice article that I whole-heartedly agree with. Kill quick saving and go back to the "save only at the end of the level" method. 

Article seems entirely irrelevantly focused on mario-type nonsense games.

I scanned through to find any support or justification for the assertion of "Kill quick saving and go back to the "save only at the end of the level" method." and couldn't.

However I can safely say that that is a truly atrocious idea that has been proven (in both directions) to only result in frustration and reduced enjoyment for the player.

The evidence is obvious - nearly all games have situations which "force" you to die by unexpected circumstances. Nearly all games are more enjoyable playing the first time through. If you encounter an death trap (of whatever type) and you have quick saving, it will not be frustrating as you have likely saved nearby (or at least, can do so the second time around). If you encounter a death trap and don't have quick saving, you likely have the frustration and/or reduced enjoyment of replaying a section once if not several times. This DOES happen in games with save points or other non-quicksaving options and it IS frustrating. Simple as that.

Sorry if that was long-winded but if you are stupid enough to suggest that particular idea you probably needed it spelt out clearly....

(If you wish to do something about quick-saving, there are other methods) 

But everyone who complains about the shortened length of games should not argue with that article.

"Mario-type nonsense games" are no different from the modern FPS or RTS in the sense that there are still goals and things to be accomplished. Why is it that we should get the chance to save wherever the fuck we want where our console bretheren started over in World 2-1 because mom was yelling at them when they were trying to jump some gap?

The fact is that mastering a game by learning it in and out is the test of what makes a game great or not. Sure you can do that after the fact like so many do with speedruns, but the initial runthrough of a game is diminished by the advent of quick saving.

Is it frustrating? Sure it can be. But I remember being frustrated with those console games too. But I stuck with them and came back to them later on, and it was damn rewarding to move on.

I guess I don't know what the fuck I'm trying to say, except that it seems unfair compared to past generations of gamers, where beating the game actually meant that you really thought out how to beat the pitfalls (especially in Pitfall) and traps that get thrown at you, rather than quick saving every 5 minutes as to have no event in the game really mean anything at all. 

It was taken down since the server was hacked (again). The material is ready for it to be taken up, they even have a computer for it, but no worthy net connection (we're talking quite a lot of traffic here, although it's cheap nowadays).

The leagues and ladders were also lost because they were on the same computers. Leagues always have a summer break anyway so I think they start working with it in earnest real soon now. Now that paradoks doesn't run the show that much anymore since his clan slackers is disbanded, they lack a powerful (and notorious) figure to hold the lines.

Use http://www.besmella-quake.com in the mean time for qw news. Then there's quaketerminus, quaddicted and quakeworld.us too (they have some useful files too). Oh and challenge-tv too.

It's done some good too that qwnu has been down, people have been doing their own projects and not bashing each others on the forums. Take for example inertia's map. 

I guess I don't know what the fuck I'm trying to say

I'd have given up before starting if I was you, because that was the biggest pile of shite I've ever heard uttered on this forum (including Phait's and Headthump's posts).

So FPS PC gamers should have to suffer frustrating and cumbersome gameplay/save combinations just because some console gamers do?? Boohoo, let me cry my eyes out over the suffering of those console gamers who have to do without saving. My heart bleeds for them. Actually, I don't give a shit about them. They choose to play frustrating games, whatever. PC gamers can have fun, balanced, non-frustrating games, and I don't see "the grass is browner" as a good reason (or indeed any reason) to spoil that status quo.

And "mastering a game by learning it in and out is the test of what makes a game great or not" is it?? Is it really?? So nothing to do with many myriad factors that might make a game great?? Forget graphics, design, architecture, maps, story, atmosphere, sound effects, creature design, weapon design, progression, exploration, gameplay balance, challenge, or god forbid FUN!! Forget all of those, what makes gaming great is learning it like the inside of your arse?? Well forgive me, I must have been doing something wrong in the dozens of games I've played where I've got enjoyment out of the other factors listed instead.

Blitz your view is coming from a single, specific-challenge-orientated perspective. Just give up trying to apply it to everyone else. 

that are bound to fizzle in a day or two to pull out of your ass, MopLady? 

if you don't like quicksaving, then DON'T USE IT.

but leave the option for people who aren't morons to use it. 

Saving....

is good....

sometimes. 

Y'know Shamb/Necros, I might be more inclined to argue if your entire debating technique didn't consist of repeating "you're wrong, and stupid too" in a variety of different ways. 

I would like quicksaving as well as autosaving. There is a downside to quicksaving for people with bad self-discipline like me, getting upset at losing health they didn't need to lose so they reload from the quicksave, I think for example Max Payne I officially finished without taking any damage at all. Quicksaving between every fight. It was a fine art and a fun process too though, but it sorta sucked and was lame as well. What I would like best is autosave every 2 minutes or so, with quicksave disabled, and the time space between autosaves rising on the higher levels of difficulty(?). 

It was a fine art and a fun process figuring out how to not take damage at all during a fight* 

LOL I never knew you felt so strongly about quicksaving.

*backs away while Shambler carves out a hole in F6 where he can stick his cock*

Yeah so, getting back to talking about this reasonably, I'm just saying that we should consider the possibility that having the quicksave/autosave feature makes us obsessive about having enough health, or doing some kill over again in a more stylish manner, or trying unsuccessfully to jump on some ledge inside a chasm 200 times in a row.

With the feature enabled, things are less tense.

Example, I played metlslime's latest without quicksaving, and I died a few times at that outdoor battle before I realized what I had to do to be a super-bas-ass and wipe out all those baddies whilst maintaining my health.

It wouldn't have been nearly as intense if I quicksaved right before and just kept doing it over and over until I did it *flawlessly*

Those 30-45 seconds of nailgun wielding mayhem in the outdoor part of ant.bsp would definitely have been diminished if the threat of doing it all over again wasn't there.

Sure it's fun even if you quicksave, but you're just raising the stakes and making everything that much more meaningful in terms of the value of life and death in a game when it means doing it all over again. 

Restricting saves to arbitry points, or at the end of levels, is all well and good if the audience of the game is hardcore gamers and will put up with having to progress or reattempt.

But this ignores the point of save games, and what every other 'casual' gamer will be doing with them, saving the game so they can take a break and come back to it later. If the only thing designers can think of to create tension in their games is to space save points further apart or throw challenges before/after them, then it's likely the gameplay at fault, not the fact you can save whenever you wish.

Games have cheats and plenty of other things to 'ruin' the original gameplay/story/feel of the game, but it's up to the player to choose if they'd like to take advantage of them or not. The designer should just concern himself to do what he can to create a fun experiance.

Blitz, I don't feel offended if you use Quicksaves/Loads, or if you don't. That's your choice as a player. I don't in Quake, but if I was playing another game, I'd completely appriciate the option to save whenever I was ready to stop playing for the time being. 

if you want to make the game more difficult, simply don't save.

but leave the option for players who don't want to have to restart a spot because they had to go shopping or pick someone up.

i didn't feel the need to write up a huge novel with what could be contained in a few lines. :) 

I don't want to have to remember to save. Allied Assault's system of having auto-saves carefully spaced through the level, combined with the option to quicksave, means that you can just go on your merry way and if you die, you'll restart a reasonable distance back, but not lose 30 minutes of progress.

I think one pitfall of quicksaving is that it encourages designers to make levels that require quicksaving.

I do like the mario system, but it only works when the level takes 1-2 minutes to run through. If the level takes 45 minutes or whatever some EA executive decided was necessary to hit their "20 HOURS OF GAMEPLAY!!!!" requirement, then things have to be done differently. 

like in half life or allied assault, that was good. 

Would you like me to update your specsavers subscription because you've completely failed to notice the reasons I give against lack of saving and against Blitz's so called arguments against it??

Example, I played metlslime's latest without quicksaving, and I died a few times at that outdoor battle before I realized what I had to do to be a super-bas-ass and wipe out all those baddies whilst maintaining my health.

What you have to do? Not much really. Try entering that area with 8% health...

Mmmmm I bet it was SO MUCH FUN replaying 3/4 of the fucking map time after time to reach there again.... 

this seems to be legit:
http://johnromero.com/phpubb/viewtopic.php?p=85667#85667 

Properly designed games shouldn't need quicksaving - a checkpoint and/or autosave system should suffice. And on the whole, I think checkpoint save systems generate a more rewarding gameplay experience.