As for SnapMap, I'm hugely skeptical that snapping together prefabbed chunks is going to result in anything worthwhile but I guess we'll see. 

seems like something to allow console gamers to feel like they can be modders too, but anybody who's ever done any proper modding or developing will find it ridiculously limited. 

Games are long past the point where one person could create a worthwhile mod. If a SDK was released there still wouldn't be a Plutonia for Doom 4.

SnapMap is like Super Doom Maker, and assuming there will be enough variety in the prefabs and the environments available, that's fine.

Only idiots preorder games though. 

Pre-ordering on Steam allows me to preload the game so ... why am I an idiot? If it's something I KNOW I want, like Fallout 4, I don't see the problem. 

Pre-orders have been given a bad name by things like DeusEx-Gate and other instances of publishers deliberately holding content back to incentivize early/extra spend, but the basic concept of ordering something before it's released is fine if it would have been a day-one purchase anyway.

Bloody politics. 

Open world games get tons of incredibly complex mods. I'd say the problem is more with zero incentive to replay many games which is different for fucking around in an open world setting. 

I Preordered Binding of Isaac because it was reduced in price - that's a good incentive.

Preordering to get more content is retarded, even if you really want the product, because even if for you everything goes well and you eventually get the product you want, other publishers are going to think that that particular format for pre ordering is valid.

Voting with your wallet.

Moving on..


Snap map is not a new idea. Timesplitters did it back in 2002 with their map builder - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TimeSplitters:_Future_Perfect

It's the exact same concept as far as I can tell, although SnapMap allow you to place your greebles just how you want them rather than on hotspots.

I made a couple of levels in it and got bored. Maybe social gaming will solve that - which is what Bethesda is pinning their hopes on most likely.

I suspect the outcome will be pretty much what you get in Mario Maker though - the most popular levels will be 50% gimmick and 50% hardest level everz. 

...if Snapmap is Zenidthesda trying to avoid criticisms from the hardcore Doom crowd. "Oh you guysh don't like our slow-paced fancy gfx ledge-mantling takedown-move-sim?? Well just stick a bunch of corridors and arenas together and put 18,000 monsters in and hey presto Doom4 slaughtermap" 

They want to get back to the ideals of what Doom originally stood for - massive player community who continues making content to empower their IP and.

But, actions speak louder than words. And the reactions here at least (from people who should be interested in such a long term goal for a beloved franchise) have been lukewarm at best.

Because Doom had other things going for it that made players want to mod it - shareware sales format and an open code base that was built to be picked apart and re imagined by players. 

and throws a stupid amount of money at them. 

They want the fan devotion, but don't want to risk paying the price for it.

So they make something which looks similar - Snapmap. 

Dooms code base wasn't open at all. The file formats were designed to be easy to relatively create and edit, but Carmack didn't release the code until just a few years back. 

And I know you know that, but the way you worded it sounded like the code was open from launch. 

i haven't tried snap map so this is just conjecture... but i am picturing something like level editing in morrowind (and all those games that came after). you've got your prefab corridor bits and atrium wall bits. your floor and ceiling bits. you paste them together on a grid and bam, a dungeon.

but you can also place your bits off-grid and rotate them and whatnot. basically build completely custom stuff out of the stock assets. this is what i meant by 'depends on how good snap map is'.

you could make some really cool custom dungeons in morrowind and oblivion and such (oblivion had some truly epic dungeons with all stock assets).

but if it's kind of node based or something and you can't have any freedom at all in how you place it... then it's going to be limited and it's going to die out fast. 

Initially i assumed snapmap would have the ability to import custom assets, but someone shot that down (can't remember who).

Shame because if you could make your own meshes and import them then suddenly it's a proper mapping tool again. 

There was once a race game called Stunts, designed for you to build your own tracks. You played a campaign, but the biggest fun was the track editor and the races you come up with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CITIXlw_T4

If Doom4 was designed around a snapmap of sorts, it could be a breakthrough. It could be done. 

So is Trackmania. In games like Stunts and Trackmania, it matters what track pieces you place in what order. It matters rather a lot. You also spend about a third of a second with your wheels touching any one module.

In an FPS, the granularity of editing that allows the same degree of expression of new and interesting gameplay isn't in the arrangement of what rooms or atria come in what order, it's in the arrangement of pillars and ledges and lines of sight and elevations and dozens of other things. The design is the room. Just as how in a game like Trackmania it's all about combining ramps and curves and jumps and straightaways and accelerators and so forth.

Mapping at that level of granularity is the kind of thing for which you really need to be doing your own architecture. The granularity of Doom sectors and linedefs and of Quake brushwork dovetails with that requirement perfectly, which is one very underappreciated reason why there was such a robust and enduring community around level design for those games.

The Trackmania community has created entire genres of racetrack (like 'Push Forward') from modular pieces. This is not because modular pieces are inherently wonderful and amazing, but because modularity works very very well for assembling racetracks with depth from a lot of tiny pieces. Does placing entire prefabricated rooms and hallways in any order you want really offer anywhere near that level of opportunity?

I think we all know the real reason why: if you're doing your own architecture, you're doing your own art. Can't let users build ugly rooms! We can't make an amazing enough tool that lets them customize a space down to the granularity that's necessary for real level design to be taking place and still have it look flawlessly next-gen, either, so, we provide a menu of meaningless L-bend hallways, square rooms, and some of the more interesting rooms from the SP campaign turned into prefabs and call it amazing.

The user-friendly Portal2 level editor is another very good example: distances, sight lines, and jump lengths are very important, and you can customize the shape of every space down to player-sized squares. If their game didn't have the pre-established aesthetic that every level is just a clean white concrete chamber, they may not have even attempted such an editor. Furthermore, it's still just an interesting toy compared to what's possible in Hammer. 

I love the portal editor. I'm sure you can load up the map in hammer and edit it there after 

I bet also it's because they want to horse armour the shit out of additional map pieces.

"For the low, low price of $1.49 you can buy this awesome corridor piece with built in flame trap that will give those demons a toasty surprise they never saw coming!"

"For a limited time only, get all five pieces of the Fallout 4-themed room set for $9.99" 

gb2 modern development DOOMed thread 

"For $4.99 you can unlock the Mancubus..."

etc. 

It's also, obviously, because they want console users to be able to make levels ... which is ridiculous. But there you go. Level editing that works on the couch is always to be horrifically hobbled on the desktop. 

The way you determine if this is a good idea or not is to ask the devs ... so did you use SnapMap to create the game itself?

If the answer is no, it sucks. 

The bit which cheeses me off is just the bullshit way that they are trying to pass it off as in the spirit of oldskool id.

"With the original DOOM, id software ushered in a new era of user-created content, and now with SnapMap we're pushing this forward and taking it to whole new level, with a toolset that EVERYONE can use to make levels easily and quickly"

Ugh. 

'Everyone' isn't a good thing. Making a mediocre level requires hundreds of hours of practice. Making a good one requires hundreds more.

It's the old yardstick 'Aren't you worried that people will steal your work'.

Nope, never. Even if they steal your stuff, they can't steal the knowledge that you learned in order to create it.

In game level editors are the same - it's a limited scope boiled down to lowest common denominator barrier to entry.

As Lunaran said: Furthermore, it's still just an interesting toy compared to what's possible in Hammer.

And Willem; The way you determine if this is a good idea or not is to ask the devs ... so did you use SnapMap to create the game itself?

Image if they'd released a highly polished version of their PC tools, with all the user interface improvements not usually justifiable when not releasing to the public, with full end user control.

We'd still find stuff to whinge and moan about, but that'd be pretty fucking awesome.

Maybe it could still happen, but I doubt it since in terms of marketability it'd devalue Snapmap.