No, I'm not part of the Remake Quake team nor do I have an objections to the criteria Spirit uses.

Rather I am a bit concerned about the anti-creativity vibe I see some emit in their posts.

To the One True Purple: Rubicon2 isn't stock id1 Quake. To be stock id1 Quake, you have to use base progs.dat. 

Quake-Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWl1S20sxug ... kind of a neat experiment Avirox did in 2008.

And I started this thread not because someone doesn't have the right to dislike the sounds or the grapple or whatever in Remake Quake.

But I think it is sheer anti-intellectual ignorance to read some of the less intelligent posts I've seen about how someone shouldn't even be modding Quake.

That kind of backwoods flathead caveman thinking is the kind of thing that really is a bit offensive to anyone who can see the forest from the trees. 

Did anyone act like this when Mindcrime was making Nehahra?

Yeah triple post, my bad. 

most people are absolutely retarded, we can agree on that, but I think in the community here we're mostly a fair ways above average, which is why the team taking feedback and even requests is good rather than bad. There may be the odd drunken poster (including myself) whose drunken rants (or just sober immature rants) don't deserve to be taken seriously, but I think the RMQ team's openness is great. Jesus christ, if I'd released a demo of NSOE or ARWOP beforehand and dealt with this, it would have been really frustrating. Compared to the RMQ team, every other mod/map team (including quoth, rubicon2, nehahra, etc) seems to have been given a free pass. I guess since they are daring to touch the original maps that might be seen as a bit different. But still, let these guys do what they're doing, provide civil feedback, and avoid the drama. 

starting with "Jesus Christ" the rest of that post was a response in general, not to CZG. 

Rubicon2 isn't stock id1 Quake. To be stock id1 Quake, you have to use base progs.dat.

Fine, then. That doesn't defeat my point that new Q1SP releases will continue to cover the substance of Quake and id1 in particular. Case in point: mappi(1,2), digs05, oms2.

But I think it is sheer anti-intellectual ignorance to read some of the less intelligent posts I've seen about how someone shouldn't even be modding Quake.

I have not once seen anything like this posted on func, ever.

"Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics."

Where?

The only reason I'm not linking you to certain posts is because Func has no search option. 

"will continue to cover new aspects of the substance" 

Fall damage and removal of monstercount have probably been on the nerf list even before otp left the team

And yet they haven't been changed? Those have been nearly universally complained about back when the first demo came out, so how does that go with the "Requests are what made RMQ" idea? 

I started this thread only to make my own point.

Tronyn's well written thoughts say far better what I poorly tried to explained. I think with those thoughts adequately expressed, this thread is done for me. ;-) 

I believe most or even all the participants in this thread have their hearts in the right places. Some moderator rushed to judged my intentions and that's ok ... no one reads minds.

Three things I know ...

#1 I got to see an incredible Remake Quake map before MH joined the Remake Quake Team. I was like "no fucking way!" The reason I got see this map was engine help debugging some issue. I could not freaking believe it.

#2 Oddly enough, there are a lot of aligned interests in Remake Quake, people like myself and Spirit and the Quakespasm people and MH both before and after. Some of the tool enhancements you have seen and will see, you will get to use regardless of whether or not you like Remake Quake.

#3 I have no beefs with Spirit whatsoever. This thread wasn't about Quaddicted. I know Spirit is as likely to like RMQ as I am likely to like QW bunny-hopping. I love all the stuff Spirit has done with Quaddicted. He rocks!

Whether or not you like what you have currently seen in Remake Quake, these guys are testing out tools, coming up with ideas, coming up with engine enhancements that any actual hardcore Q1SP mapper would want.

And when I see non-developers and maybe even non-mappers or inactive mappers crap on various stuff in a way that isn't even constructive criticism, I do sit back and think "Wow ... that's not even cool".

Somehow I suspect I am gonna be the guy later in the year that fulfills some of Spirit's ultimate build tools wishlist. I kind of hope I'm not. But I need enhanced tools to support some of the things I would like to do personally.

There is nothing personal in any of this for me. I just wanted to express some feelings but also be enough of an ass to get to hear the legitimate voices of people who have other feelings.

Peace out. Seriously. 

 

"And when I see non-developers and maybe even non-mappers or inactive mappers crap on various stuff in a way that isn't even constructive criticism,"

So, I'm not a mapper. I'm not a developer.

But I've been playing Quake since 1996. That means I'm what may be called an "end user". Does this put me in the position of being unable to express my total dislike of the work of someone?

Oh, well.
I don't like the tiniest bit of what we've seen so far of RMQ. A total waste of time.


Seriously Baker, I understand your inborn need of setting straight the evil that men do. And I understand your need to explain people what is "that any actual hardcore Q1SP mapper would want".

But, this thread. We could easily have done without. 

> #1 I got to see an incredible Remake Quake map before MH joined the Remake Quake Team. I was like "no fucking way!" The reason I got see this map was engine help debugging some issue. I could not freaking believe it.

I got to see the same map too, and it was 100% that map that caused me to volunteer to do some engine work for them in order to get it running well.

> I don't like the tiniest bit of what we've seen so far of RMQ. A total waste of time.

That's cool, you're entitled to your own opinion; everybody is. So long as you understand that it is *your* opinion and not an objective measure of quality.

Seriously folks, there is a level of trash talk going on among some of you that is *worse* than most of the gross-outs you can see in the MP scene.

I'll ask again: just what the fuck is the problem here? 

I'd guess the title of the project, using func to talk about internal things or how awesome they are and the higher-than-you attitude some team members present are inviting to such comments.

I mean, the name Remake Quake is bound to invoke controversy.

It is like that fairy tale with the boy who screams "Wolf!". If you are told again and again how something is totally the best interpretation of Quake ever and then your expectations are shattered again and again, you might get annoyed. 

Disclaimer: That is not the reason why it is not covered at Quaddicted (I might post news about it if I liked it but no addition in the db). The reason for that is that - as I tried to explain - it is far from the original Quake game. gb wrote a lengthy post about "What is Quake, then?" and also "The one true Quake�" in which he completely missed that for some people Quake might be defined with its actual distinct features and gameplay, not a broad interpretation of the genre or setting. A game like Painkiller is not Quake. OSP is not CPMA is not Quake 3 is not QuakeLive. I do not want to write a dissertation on this so I will leave it with that. 

...you won't find a single post by me in the main thread regarding RMQ. That is because I did not want to put in harsh criticism to a work people seem to take very seriously, me not being a mapper.

That is because I perfectly understand that it is my "opinion and not an objective measure of quality. "

Bozos like Baker-boy, upstairs, do not. Or am I seeing things?

On the other end, when you decide to go public with a work, adult common sense says you should be prepared for people expressing their appreciation. Or not. 

That is because I did not want to put in harsh criticism to a work people seem to take very seriously, me not being a mapper.

please post it! it makes no difference whether you are a mapper or not. and provided it is specific criticism and clearly points out particular issues that could be improved, it is always useful to the team, no matter how harsh it is. it's only broad, hyperbolic statements such as the one you made about it being a 'total waste of time' that are liable to get people's backs up and respond defensively.. i'm certainly hoping the hundreds of hours i've put into my maps haven't been a waste of time anyway 8) 

I must admit this is childish. I've often thought of posting on this thread and then decided not to. Way I see it is that I don't care.

Gb is fickle and childish. He's also very headstrong and stubborn. To everyone.

OTP is aloof. He's obnoxious and childish, but he dont really care either, he's just being direct about his feelings.

The Silent is being blaze about this conflict. And he's being advocative because it feels good to voice your opinion about other peoples shit.

Spirit is being stubborn but makes a fair argument at the end of the day, about his website.

Baker is trying to budge Spirit I guess, and is despondent about RMQ being rejected by a community pillar. He's trying to be militant in a passive sense by forcing some of the pro-RMQ arguments. Which is fair enough, he's taking it all pretty well here.

czg is here, for which I am thankful, I missed him. But he IS quite nasty and blunt, and loves to stir it.

Scampie was just waiting for another kick-em while you think they are down moment.

I hate politics. I mean I really hate politics. All this semi-intellectual shit-slinging does nothing for me either TBH. 

I don't really the grapple (that is just me, I don't even like the grapple in AVP), so I would it would be optional and not mandatory. 

I hope it would be optional not mandatory 

I'd guess the title of the project, using func to talk about internal things or how awesome they are and the higher-than-you attitude some team members present are inviting to such comments.

this.

there's a plug AND internal dev talk in shadow's dm map release thread ffs.
it's bad enough if you're going to do it in GA or mapping help, but someone's release thread? just rude.


oh look, i posted in this thread.
also, i thought the thread title was the original one. obviously, in hindsight, i should have known better. ^_^
finally, we really didn't need another rmq thread. baker could have posted his rmq beef IN the rmq thread itself. 

Been mentioned a few times about why do diffrent Ogre versions - we've got rocket, berserk (dual saws), flak and elder (big, various special abilities). The reasoning behind this is to allow the mapper different takes on doing stuff, whilst keeping it ogre if they so wish.

As has been mentioned, they don't have to be used if not required. It depends on what's needed. They each have a different optimal range when placed - berserk, elder , flak, grenade, rocket going in order from closest to furthest.

-------------------------------------------

Thread hijacking or droning on aren't good. It's true that people on func rarely talk about what they're working on, will try and respect that. 

what? people aren't supposed to talk about quake 1 mapping/modding on func? 

oh look, i posted in this thread.

Control yourself!! 

it is actually kind of awesome to have so many posts in such a short time, so this thread rules, and controversy is productive.

also I was thinking today about how annoying the general abuse banter is (thanks for contributing CZG), how it turns func_ into the retarded shit I always imagined #terafusion was and qmap often was, and I thought: since we're all (at least potentially) smart, creative, reasonable people here, can't we have honest discussions here without CZG-style trolling and faggotry, I mean what's the point of that kind of shit in such a small community of nerds. But then I realized that in a way, that actually makes it a lot funnier. So in a way it's actually awesome. I'm not going to say I entirely approve, though I partially do, but at least I understand.