No overreaction. The inherent problem with communicating on-line is you can't see the other person's expression or hear their vocal tone. I didn't take offense. I just meant that I do indeed get a fair amount of crap about Neh, when really it is quite light in features compared to many other engines.

As for the Q3 BSP... well, I went off-topic a bit ... but as I said earlier... Q3 map format is fine. Format shmormat. I said so long as it doesn't also bring along that plastic bubblegum feel from the q3 engine renderer, or one risks contaminating the Quake atmosphere with Q3 bleghery. 

No overreaction. The inherent problem with communicating on-line is you can't see the other person's expression or hear their vocal tone. I didn't take offense. I just meant that I do indeed get a fair amount of crap about Neh, when really it is quite light in features compared to many other engines.

As for the Q3 BSP... well, I went off-topic a bit ... but as I said earlier... Q3 map format is fine. Format shmormat. I said so long as it doesn't also bring along that plastic bubblegum feel from the q3 engine renderer, or one risks contaminating the Quake atmosphere with Q3 bleghery. 

Frib, you forgot to mention FuhQuake used to be pre-packaged with dozens of MBs of crap (new textures and shit ...colored light files?)
Not sure if it changed.

This, of course, was eQuake, a package designed to be a one-step-install for new quakeworld players. It came with fuhquake.exe, new graphics, and maps, etc.

Also, fuhquake is honestly a godsend for serious qw players. As bambuz mentioned, the benefits of a logical and easy to use .cfg system, to the graphical optimizations, are astounding. Lastly, its so nice to have developers who are *still* working on the engine (in the form of ezquake), a decade after quake was released! Makes it feel special, in a way.

metl: I love fitzquake for sp play. I think, though, that it would be quite beneficial for you to take fitzquake one step farther and include UI improvements, such as fuhquake configs and such. Just my 2 cents of course :) 

<inertia> do you find yourself feeling that q1sp is too limiting?
<distrans> inertia: no, I find limitations quite enabling/liberating.
<inertia> philosophically what are the implications of that?
<distrans> the engine and it's limitations serve to both mark and de-limit the play of QSP mapping, they act as transcendental signifier if you like
<inertia> hm, go on
<distrans> infinite extension in the play of QSP mapping is both impossible and unwanted
<inertia> distrans: because neither our imaginations nor capabilities are infinite? Thus we dont feel we will be maximizing the possibility of the things we are creating?
<distrans> rather, the mapper must work to re-instill jouissance at each reconfiguration that the transcendental signifier both enables and limits
* misc_ELEK has joined #terrafusion
<distrans> infinite extension in the play of QSP mapping is unwanted because opening up to this possibility is opening up to mapping for something other than QSP
<distrans> CHIVES! 

tf is dumb until we talk about moms and dicks 

sweet 

from fuhquake.net -> download -> installer
"a cross-platform installer that not only installs FuhQuake executables but also 24bit map textures, hud elements and menu graphics required to take advantage of FuhQuake's features." So it's not just equake that included extras.

But usually people just got the fuh zips which had the executables, dlls (needed for ex png screenshots), some progfiles and a 3 meg pakfile containing something, dunno what, maybe just the alt hud.

And updating usually needs just the exe.

Btw, would the physics stay exactly the same if some new fancy engine was used? So that all old speedrunning records would stand? Does darkplaces do that? What about FTE? 

they are no allowed to use 

Who's gonna convert a couple old q1 .maps to q3 (via q3map2 and/or something) and have a test run in darkplaces?
Ant at least had a .map... :) 

to do that -- I imagine everyone who is interested in that sort of thing has already done it. If you want to compile a bunch of old maps to test q2bsp2 with, grab the bspc tool for Quake3 Arena, set for decompile, target to a Q1 bsp. If it decompiles correctly, recompiling with q3bsp2 presents no problems. 

Why Not Use Q3 Bsp For Q1 Sp
Speeds, a better question would be: why do you feel its necessary for this to be a wide adoption in quake mappers if using q3 technology for q1 is something you obviously want to do yourself? (seems that way from your posts at least)

Are you trying to make sure people will play your maps if you do so? Theres alot of opportunity here for you to prove some people wrong; that it can be done and done well. Go map. 

that too
and just cheking if things have changed much :)
Go map yourself.

btw Still, no one said about 'industry'... 

I would like to use q3 bsp purely for the curved surfaces, detail brushes etc side, not for tga textures etc. It would certainly offer more flexibility to the mapper. I'm not sure if you can use standard quake textures in a q3 bsp though. 

What's to prevent you from exporting your existing Quake WAD's into 24bit tga format? They would look exactly the same. 

i've experimented a bit with this, but if you're using tga textures, you can shrink the oversized textures to match up with quake's texture scale, that way, you still get all the nice colours from the original textures, but don't have the inconsistency you would normally get with 1x scaled skins against 0.5x scaled textures. 

http://www.quakesrc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5722

yeah, fitzquake is their god

All Hail, Fitzquake. Ye Lord and Majesty Metlslime!

I reread the previous 59 posts of the thread. The discussion contained just about every point of view that is relevant to the topic, with pro adding Q3bsp format actually dominating in terms of agreement among the discusees, FitzQuake doesn't really get mentioned until post #34, yet, once again, we are being made out to be a little enclave of purist and elitist. 

Wow. Some people are far too concerned about what other people are doing. I mean, who really gives a shit? 

I'm really a font of self-consciousness . . . 

Those guys are engine coders, right? So they hate the idea that no-one will use their engines they spend so much time on. The thing is, if they actually had a decent sense of aestheics between them, more mappers - and players - would use their engines.
metlslime is undoubtedly extremely fucking good at what he does. It's not because FitzQuake is 'pure' that people use it - it isn't that pure and it certainly isn't pixelated 8bit or whatever drivelsome excuse those coders use to cover their lack of ability.
It's because metl sets out with the right intention and sticks with it, producing an engine that does as much of what people actually want as possible, as accessibly as possible.

Here's what metl wrote previously:

my job is to render the content accurately. If you play stock id, it'll always look like stock id. But if you play a new map with new features, such as fog or skyboxes, those features will appear as the mapper intended.

FitzQuake owns as an engine because metlslime has a mature sense of design. If the other engine coders don't, that's their problem, not mine.

The root misconception is that engine coders see their personal project as an end in itself, which for their own satisfaction as coders is fine. But in terms of other people using their work, an engine is not an end in itself, it is only a means to an end - an engine is there to render someone else's content, for someone else's entertainment. If you're not comfortable with that, maybe engine coding isn't for you. 

Well said, even if you are a q3dm10 thief :D 

I repeat my belief that it really helps if the coder is a mapper too... or if the developers are a close-knit small real-world communicating team of coders, mappers, texture artists, modellers, game designers and whatever.

People often seem to rail against things they don't understand. Someone mentioned the nice blue highlights in the metal textures and how colored lighting fucks those up. I had not thought of it, but now, it makes some sense.

If some technology A is replaced with some other technology B with a different way of doing things, sometimes all the features don't work as well as they were supposed to. The old technology's A's hacks for realism don't work as intended in the new tech B... Until then a third wave, tech C (like doom3 with again different approach) where it's possible to do those things "properly", entirely disposing of the hacks. That though most certainly feels totally different and requires new artwork from scratch, and maybe even gameplay.

I remember John Carmack telling in a .plan in the nineties that 16bit quake actually looked worse than the 8-bit one (so they didn't release it). This seems also counterintuitive at first, but if it's revealed that the "8-bit" colors are actually a carefully selected 256-color palette of 16 million colors (3x8=24 bits), it starts making sense - after all, all the art was created with this palette too - pixel by pixel by hand!
(Anyone who's done stuff with deluxe paint should be familiar with this, how, although there are not that many colors available at one time, they can pretty precisely be tuned and more colors be allocated to different shades of the most important colors)

All this means that it's not obvious adding features improves the artistic impression of the game or fits in. 

I use different engines, and change up frequently depending on what type of feel I'm exploring at a given time. It isn't a matter of being more Neoleothic than the next guy, it is what in terms of aesthetics and gameplay fits the game that is in front of you.
I was frankly shocked at the acceptance of the Areowalk replacement textures that pervaded Quakeworld.nu (before the site went down) by players and coders. Those were truly bad, and it may be the roll of mappers have to be a bit more 'elitist; than others to maintain a high standard. 

Freudian slip 

if they care so much about our opinions, they should change their engines to suit our wishes. XD 

no need, dude, you've already demonstrated you're a second-rate moron.