Quake's endless mysteries. This game just never stops to bring up new stuff to confuse people. What's next? 

I added cl_bob 0 to the demo BizarroSouless made with a demo editor tool because I couldn't stand the bobbing (I thought he played with bobbing on while recording the demo and "corrected" that, a mistake I wouldn't make today). 

the brick texture is the one I was talking about. It looks great.

ok, intended to play a bit more last night, ended up playing the whole pack (well I'm up to the boss levels which I saved for the weekend). Its great stuff overall, I loved it.

Scragbait's later levels are awesome, I loved the evil feel in the last two, in fact atmosphere is the name of the game here, the pack is full of it and I was very happy with that aspect.

Distrans, your level set is A+ material, loved the combat and loved the look. There were quite a few spots I stopped and just admired the exquisite combination of brushwork and texturing.

Noticed the dm2 section too, nice touch. the new mosters were quite ood and very well integrated. The cave section with the spiders was a real highlight for me, that was as tense as anything I've played in quite some time.

great effort both of you, I just wish I could appreciate the music too, maybe time to get a new soundcard :) 

I've been lurking & stalking you lot since the Qmap days, about time I made a comment :/
Seems this pack is a worthy reason.

I had problems with Fitz. When starting the screen was just black. I could hear the demo rolling but bugger all vision :/
An old infrequent problem arose again when I alt-tabbed. When coming back to the game I get half a screen ?! the top half just black. I don't think this is a Travail issue as it's happened before on a diff machine with diff maps. A Fitz complaint ? (using 080 btw).
I reverted to Joequake, not my first choice for SP quake but it ran fine :)

I played on hard, I couldn't be arsed to find the Nightmare tele, (I always try to) was there one ? or was it something to do with fragging the Smablah at the start ?

The main reason I felt the urge to comment was in fact the DM2 area. Heh, very nice :)
After walking in to the 'main' room and seeing the bars either side, the steps either side as well... 'hang on a minute... this seems familiar, ahh they just copied that bit and... ahh I see.. ' Good stuff :o)

Another nice touch was the spider bites. Nicely done I thought. Although the damn things give me the creeps, the main start of that map drastically cut my FPS.
The 'teleporting towards you Smablahs' was a nice trick too. You run forward and shit! in your face fat bloke!

Never really been a huge fan of end of level bosses, (nice knickers btw) and I went God for the last half of the ruck :(
With the odd noclip and a few confused issues with bearings, overall this was a fun pack.
Off for another go.
Thanks guys. :o)

Sir H 

I guess this should have been obvious. You used snippets of DM2 which is under the GPL. You even hinted at it in the readme file.


Straight from the GPL:
----------------------


2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions:

a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change.

b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

(...)

These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License

(...)

!!!

^^ This means that Travail in its current form must be licensed under the GPL. ^^

!!!

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code

(...)

!!!

^^ It should be very clear what this means. You should update the Travail distribution to include the required license note, mark the map to be based on DM2, and either include the complete Travail map sources or a written offer to provide them.

!!!

Why don't people ever read the damn thing? 

... because it is too long... 

Did I get this right, you want to use the content, but the license is "too long" for you?! 

not trying to be an asshole here, but this excerpt from Travail's readme

"You may distribute this archive, without modifying its contents, via the internet or BBS systems. Apart from that, you may play it...that's all"

is - to put it mildly - ridiculous if you consider those "contents" contain GPL licensed material.

:/ 

No. The DM2 snippet was not taken from the released id maps, but rebuilt from scratch. 

It's clearly derived from it.

"any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is _derived_ from the Program or any part thereof"

This is clearly the case, it's even admitted.

And in the Travail readme, there's this:

"Some of the stuff used herein is available via GPL, go forth and seek it out"

which in and of itself is a GPL violation because if you include GPL licensed "stuff" in your work (which the readme clearly admits) then the whole work must again be GPL licensed.

Nothing can just be "available" under the GPL; it is _licensed_ under the GPL and that automatically has the implications listed above.

:-/ 

Calm down please... I was joking about the fact it take too much time to read the full license agreement.. I guess everybody does the same as me: accept without reading... don't be nervous, it was not against you at all ;) 

No offense taken. 

So it's fine... ;) 

Just because it contains GPL content doesn't necessarily mean the whole thing has to be GPL. There is a distinction between "this mod includes content available under GPL" and "this mod includes content licenced under GPL". For instance, I could make a map, release the source under GPL, and also give permission for the map to be used in a pack under different terms. Then the pack would not need to be GPL, because at no point has the licence been invoked. A another example would be deathmatch classic, that horrible half-life mod. Even though the maps that are included(of which DM2 happens to be one...) are now GPL, valve doesn't have to make half-life, or even just DMC, a GPL product, because they already licenced such content when they bought the quake source.

Secondly, the dm2 parts are derived from the map, rather than the source. Derived is a tricky word, but there's a clear case here to be made that it would not have been necessary to see the source of the map to create what was in this level. If this is the case then the GPL is not violated just by building such a map, in the same way that none of the quake 3 remakes of quake 1 deathmatch maps suddenly became GPL when the sources were released.

There is of course the side issue of whether copying the layout/brushwork of a map just by eye is a violation of copyright, but that would be separate to any GPL considerations.

I'd like to add finally that I don't personally know which bits of the mod the comment you quoted refers to, you may be right that the mod does violate GPL if alternative permissions weren't sought. However, your claims above aren't right, so maybe it'd be best to follow up these things in private with the team 

The DM map sources have been available FOR ages! At least 8 years.

ftp://ftp.mancubus.net/pub/idgames2/levels/editing_examples/

This is why there have been rocket arena maps like id3.bsp, DM maps that are variations of the originals like the TDM (e4m3t3m, etc.) series since the 1990's and that map that was every DM map called death32c.bsp 

Seriously - I doubt anyone is going to be sued for this infraction (weather it exists or not).

More comments on the mod's gameplay / aesthetics. 

Override the 'fair usage' doctrine of the law either, where snippets, quotes and short imitations of works are used in artistic, sometimes parodying manners. Unfortunately a lot of those who write up licensing contracts are ignorant of what would actually stand up in a court of law.

Unfortunately, given the abuse of fair usage doctrine in those clauses you cite, the GPL as it stands is likely to prove useless in the long run for the purpose of an enforceable contract. 

as Ijed is right that it destracts from the pack.

I see GPL matters get argued in many forums where a ton of clauses from the license are cited, but the citation of those clauses are only relevant to the degree that they are in accord with this:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html

subsection

� 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38

And yes, it is backed by international agreements that gives it standing in most natiomns where funcsters reside. 

really.
like it. the new physics with the monsters are a bit weird first, but go well after a while.
Level-Design is different, but very clever and Entertaining.
Havent been able to find all the secrets of the first episode yet, but still working on it.
Nice one ! 

I don't want any personal feuds about this. I was just saying.

I really just want people to think about the GPL because it is the basis of free software, and of Quake. If you use Quake, the GPL affects you.

I myself am known to act up against "idiotic" rules often. However, the GPL is actually a GOOD rule. The FSF are the good guys, so it's a bit stupid to bash the GPL of all things. The GPL gave us the Quake source, the tools source and the map sources.

Maybe there are juristic ways to pull your head out of the noose where the GPL is concerned. The question is, why let it come to that?

It would simply be _wise_ to release your map under the GPL wherever you "cite" or "reference" any GPL maps (ahem.) Not to mention that it's also _cool_.

It's sad that many ppl are so quick to bash the GPL and the FSF. I think those people are confusing the good and the bad guys.

The good guys, i.e. the Free Software movement with their GPL, need your help, not your ignorance. This is a political thing. You may get away with just taking what you want (by using the loopholes several of you pointed out above), but that doesn't mean it is wise to do so. And you know damn well I have a point here.

Since the majority here is unlikely to even grasp the problem (and just wants me to shut up now), I'll close the case.

golden_boy. 

Yeah, we're generally pretty dim around here. You might try using smaller words, or typing more slowly. 

cant say I was overly enamoured with the final boss combat, but the mapping in the boss levels was still great.

also cheated to negke's levels using the map command because I couldnt find the entrance. Great maps both, really do deserve to be played and not just stumbled upon as a secret. The cave level is brilliant. 

Hello Travail:
http://www.quaddicted.com/stuff/daily_usage_200707.png

Made some happy 80 Gigabyte traffic so far. That's almost 1000 downloads for the travail.zip (only "330" for the soundtrack though). So, who says there is no interest in Quake Singleplayer nowadays? 

Thats Good.

Reckon the interest in this archaic game will take a long time to die; consumers don't want to spend $400 on a graphics card every six months.

Plus its one of the best games of all time.

First impressions on the pack:

Nicely detailed, but some clip brushes would have helped here and there - I haven't got stuck but I'm wary of the possibility. I prefer to be killed by dangerous things.

There's a nice sense of exploration; it feels like you're really moving through this alien landscape, and not just playing a map. Sometimes this confuses the progression, but nothing more than twenty seconds of legging about.

It would have been nice to have some more meaty weapons earlier on. It didn't stop the flow but I prefer more hardcore slaughter. A GL before the SSG / NG wouldn't have disrupted progression much and would have made some entertaining gib fountains from the grunts and funny player-suicides in the occassional compact spaces.

Played through engineer of destruction so far. 

That's almost 1000 downloads for the travail.zip (only "330" for the soundtrack though). So, who says there is no interest in Quake Singleplayer nowadays?

nice! how many sites did the link get posted on? and what were they.. for future reference :p