Do players really play maps more than once?

Yes.

Is the extra design for different routes and ways to enjoy the map wasted

No, absolutely not! I'm always disappointed that modern maps have less different routes open for exploration than E1M2 from 1996.

After seeing 5+ demo's of people getting lost and not seeing any physical/verbal reaction makes it difficult to understand the problem.

I got a bit lost, but it was my fault only, not the map's. I figure the other players felt that way too. 

@Mfx, that demo was painful, I can't understand how you play Quake without a mouse and just keyboard. Sorry man I could not watch it to the end, I gave up when you were next to the gold door with the gold key and then wandered around lost ... :( 

Do players really play maps more than once? Of course, especially if the map is beautifull !

Each time I play my old maps, I try to be creative in killing monsters! (hehehee)

I try new routes, rocket-jump on interesting corners, looking for all the secrets I missed (secrets is a great thing, in Quake!). I like to explore and "taste" the strong atmosphere. When a sucker gets in my way, I nag him in any vicious ways (especially the Shambler and the Vore). 

Great map!! Getting lost is half the fun :)

@Barnak On replay I try to see how much infighting I can cause and save ammo. 

by myself was because my keyboard stopped working and I couldn't move... it wasn't a sign of my displeasure with the map.

I enjoyed the map a lot, I tried to play the map on my other laptop but it broke and I had to play it on the surface instead (with shitty cerulian keyboard). In terms of me not strafing, this is a result of me not wanting to press too many keys simultaneously as it seemed to freeze my keyboard. I am normally a huge advocate of strafing.

I will try and give feedback tomorrow, I'm still in a recovering state from having an operation. 

but I didn't really mind that much. If there's subliminal mouse shaking it probably comes out of a sense of embarassment knowing you'd see how lost I got! This is something I frequently feel when recording demos for Negke, for example (especially if I die halfway through).

I will replay this map. I will explore alternative routes. I will search for secrets missed on 1st run. I will play more creatively, more aggressively. I will give it a shot in NM.
I think that part of the problem for me in getting lost was I kind of liek to poke around and explore each possibility before moving on. I think this tendency might have backfired on me, because it led to me not having a clear mental map of the 'route' - if that makes sense... 

I think that part of the problem for me in getting lost was I kind of like to poke around and explore each possibility before moving on.

That is an interesting point, there is a certain pleasure from completing a section before moving on. Exploring all the routes and secrets is certainly fun, but with multi-route maps the area boundaries are blurred because the map overlaps and that can cause problems.

@fifth, I was wondering if you were having problems with your demo because the movement felt awkward to me. One thing I liked about your demo was you worked out the SSG shortcut at the beginning of the map, it made me smile. Hope your operation was successful.

@OTP, I knew a couple of people would work out the central lift trick, I saw something like it in Honey and was amazed at how simple but yet cool it was. I liked how you killed the shambler at the top of the building, there was a knight on one side and you on the other and the shambler did not know which way to turn! :D 

was something that eluded me in backstein for ages but I remembered it for this map. I also played the map a second time and got the RL secret, you're a cheeky monkey! 

I am surprised by how few people got the RL in their demo, I though it would be obvious which is why there is no secret trigger. That is why I love mapping with large bricks, there are so many sneaky things you can do with them! 

That is an interesting point, there is a certain pleasure from completing a section before moving on. Exploring all the routes and secrets is certainly fun, but with multi-route maps the area boundaries are blurred because the map overlaps and that can cause problems.

I tried to keep a maze approach (hug the lsft wall) and never got lost per se. I did forget I was holding the silver key at one stage...der! Backtracking was always about making sure I'd finished as much as possible. I was so impressed at being able to come at that shambler from a different direction after I panicked and ran away. The environment was on my siide at next encounter. I still haven't found the last secret...so, excuse me while I go play this again...and again :) 

Had fun with this. For work reasons I could only play in 5-10 minute chunks, which didn't help with finding my way around. Enjoy some terrible play at http://michael.hudsondoyle.geek.nz/ivory_demos.zip 

This is actually the first map I've ever played twice in a single day. I went back and tried on nightmare mode, just gave up about an hour ago because I had died 4 times in a row mostly from being stupid. I found 2 additional secrets, so I'm up to 8 of 10. I may try again on nightmare, but I'm not a big fan of epic end battles, so if I make it that far I may just stop there.

I have to say though, there does seem to be something about this map that for some reason I have a hard time remembering how to get back to places I've already been. 

Do players really play maps more than once? Is the extra design for different routes and ways to enjoy the map wasted because people only play maps once and think that is it.

I have already replayed this map twice, trying alternate routes each time. Btw, for me, the only really frustrating moment was when I couldn't get to the rocket launcher. In the meantime I have found out how, and slapped my forehead plenty ;-).

That is an interesting point, there is a certain pleasure from completing a section before moving on.

It's not just the pleasure of completing a section, for me it is also about making sure that you don't get any surprises later on. I often retreat backwards while shooting when I hit a nest of enemies, and that doesn't work so well if you haven't killed everything behind you. 

In previous maps I auto-magically (trigger brushes) opened shortcuts for players so if they fell down they can get back. This time I decided to let players open the shortcuts themselves so they can understand where the shortcut is, but you ignored the buttons, why?
I cant remember ignoring a button, except to further have a look around and come back to it. Also, at first I was a little confused about which way the "open shortcut" would work.

I think your maps do have a degree of sameness about them - textures and room sizes/decals dont vary too much - which made me get lost a couple of times. But getting lost is par for the course i think in all 3d shooters.

Halflife 2 is maybe an exception. I'm always finding the routes interesting, but not confusing. Perhaps a mapping sign of excellence ?? 

sorry maybe my comment was misunderstood. It was a poor way of saying I understood that you had done the 'map breaking' deliberately (ie that it wasnt actually map breaking). 

Don't worry I saw the GK door very clearly. I just had no idea how I ended up there from....well the Shambler above the SK door, really! I wanted to make sense of the route I'd taken, and look for more secrets :) 

@mwh, cool thanks for the demo.
@Rick, unfortunately this map is not really designed for NM skill. I would recommend Hard as it has a much better setup and balance.
@SleepwalkR, yeah, I thought the same about the RL when I saw people miss it. I even added a second clue to the next altar but no one connected the two together. There is always a fine line between subtle and obvious for secrets.
@nitin, I can see how people think the setup of enemies facing away from the player is broken but I always liked that setup in Quake.
@Shambler, good, at least I know the texture was alright. :)

I think your maps do have a degree of sameness about them - textures and room sizes/decals dont vary too much
This is a prefab problem, once I find a prefab/style I like I often fall into the problem of copy and paste, the downside of prefabs. I thought this map was better because each area has a theme and the boundaries were more obvious.

Halflife 2 is maybe an exception. I'm always finding the routes interesting, but not confusing. Perhaps a mapping sign of excellence ??
@stevenaaus, Maps worked on by many people always have more unique styles and the chance of more memorable locations. This is why good games companies rotate maps around between people, it keeps them fresh and interesting. 

i played on hard and it was no challenge. final battle was meh, I don't like that kind of painkiller-like g/borefest. worse because of respawning ammo (iirc).

felt the same "oh poop I have enemies showing me their back" moments where I felt disappointment about not playing the map as intended (as I was thinking at that moment). I only read readmes for technical instructions.

loved the secrets I found but they ultimately lead to the feeling I just mentioned.

loved the combat, monsters were very well placed and felt natural. wonderful looks and brushwork as usual. felt lost most of the time though. #41 is spot on. I think I prefer linearity as in having a clear objective (not as in being on rails and being severely limited in a bland story hello halflife2).

demo later.

Looking forward to playing it again (nm!) and finding the secrets.

I think the silent majority of quake players actually replays maps they like a lot. At least that is my impression from when they post something after all. 

Maps worked on by many people always have more unique styles and the chance of more memorable locations.

That does not sound very logical to me, if this is more than just a guess do you have actual examples? Isn't many hands a danger to the most unique or even eccentric design? 

@Spirit, Now I understand why the post at quaddicted is labelled as nice. I am disappointed you don't like the map but I do not have any regrets about wanting to explore the idea of multi-route map design.

That does not sound very logical to me, if this is more than just a guess do you have actual examples? Isn't many hands a danger to the most unique or even eccentric design?
All of the maps for RTCW:ET at Splashdamage were worked on by multiple people. I have found this at all games companies I have worked for. There might be a key designer in charge of a map but this is not an exclusive thing, others will work on it as well. I think it is an excellent idea because the diversity of design ideas can make better maps. 

...found the LG (10/10), and I'm kicking myself because the visual clue (unique sconces) was obvious with hindsight.

kudos Sock! 

The Ogres are rough in this map on Nightmare.

I don't worry too much about "breaking" the map by following odd paths. The first elevator, I naturally jumped back quickly after pressing the button, hopped on the roof and went up instead of down. Arrived at the top to find myself behind a Hell Knight.

In some ways, the shortcuts were maybe less than helpful. Often the shortcut is found before visiting the area that it will take you away from. At this point it doesn't work and I found that to be a little confusing.

Still, a really nice map and not too big, I may give it another run today. 

the rating at quaddicted is meant to be objective, don't read my personal review here into it... 

Here's my first time demo, recorded with DarkPlaces: http://koti.mbnet.fi/jeejeeje/quake/ivory_jim.zip

Took 21:58, found 4 secrets and got 97 kills. Every time I had lost all armor, I found a new armor :) 

>felt the same "oh poop I have enemies showing me their back"
>moments where I felt disappointment about not playing the map as
>intended...

That's why I like multi-routes maps. I like to surprise the monsters and jump on their back : "Hello you moronic thing, I got you in the ass, dude. Arf arf arf !" Hehehee!

Even if a map is linear, I always rocket-jump to places so I can surprise the monsters and look at their poopin'ass. So fun to electrocute them, with a Quad-dammage ON, and see their head flying to the ceiling (yep, I cheat a lot).

If a map has multi-routes (non-linear map), the monsters could be walking (patroling) around instead of just standing still like a day-dreaming fat ass.


By the way, tonight I'll reply the map using the DMSP mod (adding more monsters and infights). There will be a real Rave party on the whole map. MUAHAHAHA!