Today I walked through this topic and it looks very promising (and I really like the Quoth idea).
Make it great, people here wait for this stuff! (:

And BTW Quoth: are there any maps/episodes/whatever using this mod? 

Quoth. 

winter_mappack2005
the rest is silence! by hrim

and wel i dont remenber any other :p 

... onto Kell's website.. 

whats everybody's situation looking like at the moment? Reckon we will be launching this month or will it be later?

I did a bit of mapping at the weekend and as a result managed to just about get on top of it. I think I should at least be able to get a beta out by the end of the month.

I think Trinca and JPL are about done with their maps, and Biff seems to be in about the same situation as me.

How is everyone else doing? What is the code/model side of things looking like? I still have the first beta of the Quoth upgrade pak, and the new stuff in that was looking pretty good if a bit rough around the edges. I think I sent a long email to Kell about it too, but I didn't get a response. Kell, if you are reading, let me know if you received the mail. 

Madfox is also in beta, obviously... sorry for not mentioning him in the last post ;)

what is the situation about adding speedrunning support to Quoth? It's not a big deal to me personally, but as discussed earlier in the thread, speedrunners are an important part of the community, and seeing a run on your map can be really rewarding. I plan to make sure my map is runnable (currently there is one big ass shortcut that can be had) and I would love to see if speedrunners can speed their way though it (and the other maps in the pack).

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that the speed running progs was closed source to stop cheats, but is there any chance the final Quoth 2 source could be passed on to the speed runners so they can add it as the final change without any of their secrets being spilled? 

Out of interest how is the progs 'closed source'? I have yet to see a progs that was not decompilable by one of the tools out there? 

whats everybody's situation looking like at the moment? Reckon we will be launching this month or will it be later?

I worked on the map quite a bit last week and Saturday. My eyes are getting sick of it. I'm scaling it down a little bit to make it easier to complete by the end of this week. 

My map is ready since last month, and I'm just waiting for a delivery date. I guess the final pack built will be triggered by Kell and necros progress on Quoth update... 

Decompiling is ugly, you won't get all the comments and akward code. 

My monitor's up shit creek without a paddle right now, so unless I can get it fixed or find a new one pretty sharpish I'm going to have to pull out of the event. For now I suggest assuming that I'm out already, because I can't afford to shell out for a new one at the moment.

It blacks out every thirty minutes or so at which point I have to give it a twenty rest, so doing anything more than checking forums/emails gets tiresome fast.

However, I'm loving what I've got of my map so far, so I'll release it on its own at some point if I don't make the deadline for this pack. :) 

Can't you borrow an old crt from someone? I'm sure there must be someone you know that has an old monitor you can borrow for a while. Maybe it's a bit of a hassle, but I'm sure you can find something. I hope you can anyway ;) 

> (..) it was mentioned that the speed running
> progs was closed source to stop cheats (..)

Don't want to start a fight or something... but isn't this a violation of a GPL licence?

PS. How to make colors/italic/whatever in posts? Nothing like [i]/<em> seems to work on 'preview'. /: 

<q>quote</q>
<i>italics</i>
<b>bold</b> 

If I am correct progs.dat does not lie under the GPL. There are lots of "closed source" mods. 

[q]Decompiling is ugly, you won't get all the comments and akward code.[/q]

But even so it usually re-compiles with a bit of cleaning up. Withholding the src to stop cheaters seems like a flaky idea to me and they should just make it open for SP modders to include (at least on request). 

@czg
Thx. (:

If I am correct progs.dat does not lie under the GPL. There are lots of "closed source" mods.
According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuakeC it is.
Anyway, I just want to point that this is... wrong? Even if it is against cheats. \:

And BTW Quoth I've found those two by necros:
ne_deadcity.zip (The Rats in the Walls)
ne_marb.zip (Crescendo Of Dreams + Surmounting Terror) 

If I may, since were on the subject of the progs.dat and the GPL, direct your attention to this thread, as it explains the reason why it says the progs.dat lies under the GPL on wikipedia, when in reality it does not. It also tells the story of someone who wanted a particular source code, and threated legal action if he didn't get it.

http://www.divstudios.po.gs/fvf/forum/viewtopic.php?t=136 

But definitively is not cool :(

I'd like to remember that our community grew and still alive based on individual contributions: code, maps or artwork assets. And people new to Quake (and even those not-so-new, like me) only get a chance to learn something when someone else is kind enough to share knowledge. Safety through obscurity for a Quake mod is really a very weak reason nowadays. If someone really cares about cheating the source code absence won't stop him. But not releasing the source will discourage any beginner in the QC coding. 

The QuakeC source was released twice ... the original 1996 source release (quakec, qbsp, light, vis. etc.) was sort of an informal "you can use this to make maps and mods" license. In 2000, the quakec source and tools sources were re-released under GPL. There is also a third class of license, which is the closed-source commercial license that Valve used for half-life, for example.

Release from 1996 with no license:
ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/unsup/progs106.zip

Here is the re-release from 2000 under GPL:
ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/q1tools_gpl.tgz

My interpretation is that the original release carried an implicit license to make non-commercial mods without any open-source requirements. If your code is based on that release, you are not bound by GPL.

However, an alternate interpretation is that the 2000 GPL re-release cleared up a previously ambiguous license situation. In other words, there was no license to do anything with the source until 2000, when id software retroactively licensed the original source as GPL. This means that even a mod from 1997 would have to obey the GPL. 

...although consider that most of the legal systems we'd be dealing with here are generally loathe to accept "retrospective application" (a reverse sunrise principle if you like) in law. Thus, mods from '97 to the re-release date are probably not bound. However, any mod from this period updated post 2000 would need to be scrutinised thoroughly. 

lol base pack threath? errrr 

Based on id software's behavior pre-2000, they didn't seem to mind that third-party total conversions were sold commercially without any blessing from id. For example: malice, shrek, and xmen-TC.

Since those commercial projects must have used qbsp, light, and vis in some form, this tells us that id software thought it was okay to use those for commercial, closed-source projects.

It's also extremely unlikely (but possible) that those projects wrote their quakec from scratch. So id software was okay with a commercial closed-source progs.dat based on their sources, too.

Since commercial projects are the most likely to get id's legal team to pay attention, if they let the projects happen that indicates that they thought the terms of their licenses were being honored.

So I'm leaning towards the idea that there are two licenses available for us to choose from, one being the "use it how you like" informal license, and the other being the GPL.

If anything, the GPL option actually gives us more freedom becuase that means that we can release OUR modified versions as GPL. 

give me my license to play my legal Quake mappings, before I'm paying two times for the ones I've got!

On toppic, Ive been mapping two months to clear a Hom in my LostMine map, and it seemed to be a brush with two faces on a side.
Now I see two faces on every corner of my seasons.

Than, you've got mail. 

additional idea for the new version of quoth:

misc_sound and misc_model that allow the usage of external files (wav, mdl) coming with a custom map, which are then automatically precached (!) and displayed as long as they are properly installed/refered to in the entities' "sound" / "model" fields.

would make quoth even more versatile, i think.