thanks fakepreach and lardarse for clearing that up! i had no idea .items2 had any bearing on serverflags!

mike, since you're only using the drole, you could do a quick find/replace and just change 'items2' to something like 'drolevar'.
that way you can just leave the old serverflags variable alone. 

As I am not using any Quoth items, I can do away with the code relating to items2 without any detriment. It's just a couple of If/Then statements which don't apply anyway.

Onwards and upwards... 

don't forget to tone down the drole damage a lot. ^_^; 

"Do you expect me to talk?"

"No, Mr Bond. I expect you to die!" 

so, going in the opposite direction, it's possible to make monsters with smaller bbox sizes, however you need to offset them by whatever amount smaller than 6 that you used.

now that you're down frowning in perplexity at that terrible sentence, this is what i mean:
say you made a skinny monster, '-6 -6 -24' to '6 6 40'
you need to setorigin(self, '-10 -10 0') the monster or, if you place it close to walls, it will get stuck (even though, when you turn r_showbboxes on, the bbox clearly is not in any wall).

but other than that, it seems to work fine, really lets monsters bunch up. would have worked good for the voreling had i known about it back then. 

not only was that sentence awful, but there's a typo too.

by whatever amount smaller than 16 that you used.  

I did this with Floyd, didn't do the setorigin trick but instead made the in-editor box full shambler size so there's no risk of placing it in a wall. 

I'm still perplexed in making the Doomguy crouch.
Didn't want to start it over afraid of being a fool.

But the trick me was told to lower the bouncingbox so bullits would fly over it, and then raise the model again.
I don't understand. Then it would sink in the ground, but raising it would raise the bouncing box too? 

i'm not sure if we've covered this but when do touch functions get run when monsters are involved via movetogoal/walkmove?

are they run at the moment movetogoal is called?

ie:

void() someTouchFunction =
{
other.happy = 0
}

void() ai_run =
{
self.happy = 1
movetogoal(1)
if (self.happy)
cheer
}

so in this retarded example, while the ai_run function will make the monster happy, it will run a touch function right after movetogoal so that the if statement will fail?

i've been observing some screwed up behaviour and i'm trying to track it down... 

Yeah, the touch functions are respected there - only pitfall to bear in mind is that if the move fails because the monster is blocked, then they don't move at all and so the monster doesn't touch.

So that doesn't really help you track down your problem, and it sounds like you've got a pretty solid minimal test there. So I'm just gonna take a peek at somet-
OH MY!

Oh dear.

Very long standing bug in quake coming right up...

PF_walkmove, the non-navigational monster moving code, has the following code in it, which I remember noting down for possible use with that JS quake engine idea

// save program state, because SV_movestep may call other progs
oldf = pr_xfunction;
oldself = pr_global_struct->self;

G_FLOAT(OFS_RETURN) = SV_movestep(ent, move, true);

// restore program state
pr_xfunction = oldf;
pr_global_struct->self = oldself;


Firstly a quick note, "PF" in front of a function in the quake source means that it's a "progs function" - a light wrapper around some C code called as a QC builtin. The snippit I quoted then calls SV_movestep - the real heavyweight movement function which other parts of the engine also use.

Around that call we have some clearly documented code which stores the current QC execution state and restores it after the call. This firstly tells us that touch functions are a possibility they have programmed for, and secondly eliminates a possible source of the buggy behaviour - that after calling the touch control never returns to the QC.

Except your QC doesn't use walkmove, it uses movetogoal. I went looking for PF_movetogoal and was surprised to find it missing. It turns out that the QC builtin in this case directly calls SV_movetogoal instead, and I'm sure some of you are ahead of the puchline here - it doesn't save the QC state.

I haven't gone away to do follow up QC tests, but worst case I can imagine is that none of the remaining QC in your function ever gets run if a touch function is encountered, and best case is that it's just self that gets obliterated. In the former case you are basically stuck with using walkmove instead. In the latter you can put the traditional

local entity oself;
oself = self;
movetogoal(1)
self = oself;

But yeah, genuine nasty bug there I think. Let me know whether it is that worst case scenario situation or what, I'd like to know... 

ohhh ok, yes! that explains some OTHER whacked out behaviour i've been seeing!

i've changed movetogoal into a wrapper that (among other things) does a movetogoal(1) and then calls x number of walkmove(directionItMoved, 1) to complete the amount of movement requested.
this allows a monster to continue to move forward, even if it's full movement would have failed allowing it to get through thin or cluttered areas better.

i was seeing some weird stuff where a monster would touch a trigger and then not move (it was moving by 1, but not completing the walkmoves).

i guess it never mattered before because movetogoal was solely called at the very end of a qc function.

anyway, i've added in your suggested change and will test it today. :) 

If you like, there's a trick you can apply there to only call ~log(x) steps in the worst case rather than x for moving x distance.

The trick is try to walkmove(x) first - being optimistic!

Check the return value for failure, and we can finish if we succeeded.

If we failed, replace x by with x * 0.5. We then try to walkmove(x) with the new x.

We keep repeating the above step(in italics) until x is smaller than 1.

Note that after the first iteration we don't need to check for success.

Worked example:
Suppose we want to walk forward 32 units but only have space to move 21 units.

First time through walkmove fails
x=32, moved=0

Second time through we succeed
x=16, moved=16

Third time round we fail as we are 16 forward and another 8 would take us past 21
x=8, moved=16

Fourth round we succeed
x=4, moved=20

Fifth fails
x=2, moved=20

Sixth succeeds
x=1, moved=21

Since x has reached 1 we terminate.

I'm making the numbers quite friendly by choosing x as a power of 2. It also lets me gloss over the edge cases of when to reject x and stuff. Nonetheless the method is sound and a fairly simple loop. Probably the hardest idea would be proving that it always works, I've always been fond of Proof by Single Worked Example though... 

i've been meaning to do that. :)

i wasn't sure if there was a point where doing it linear was faster or if it was always slower and i just haven't been in the mood to try to figure it out. ^_^;

it looks like you're saying it's always faster?
also, while we're talking about walkmove and such...
is it ok to call a walkmove/movetogoal larger than bbox size?
ie: walkmove(yaw, 256) as opposed to looping walkmove (16) 16 times.
not sure if this messes up collision if the bbox is displaced by huge amounts... 

Yeah, the binary chop should always reduce or equal the number of calls to walkmove in the linear algorithm. The nice thing about it is getting twice as high precision only costs you 1 more call to walkmove, although I doubt anyone needs monsters THAT much more finely tuned than 1 unit.

I tried to pick through the engine code to decide if you could get away with long distance walkmoves. But it's the densest part of the engine code and although my suspicion was that collisions would get skipped I wouldn't be able to answer with confidence.

So I bashed away through the latter half of Lewis and made a test mod. The emperical conclusion: no.

You can make a monster walkmove 256 units and completely skip a 64 unit trigger. So yes, limit yourself to width of a bbox per iteration. You can be assured that you won't ever skip through walls of the game world. BSP entities don't count though... 

You can be assured that you won't ever skip through walls of the game world.

this is more what i was asking. mainly the use for super long walkmoves would be to check for charging/leaping abilities like fiends instead of just checking if they can see the player.

a walkmove check of even just 16 or so units will stop a fiend from doing that psycho leap 'bug' around doorways.
otoh, it will also cause it to fail more often as a jump that would hit a wall yet allow it to bounce towards the player (and hit him) would fail unlike with just plain visibility checks.

you could possibly make a 'robust' walkmove that, when failing to move, would tweak angles by a small amount and try again.

hmmm... 

I was about to warn you about using walkmove checks(where you want to reserve the right to rollback the movement and do something else) too freely. What if you walkmove into a rocket during a 'check'. Luckily you are largely protected from this kind of thing. This is because the only thing that monsters will collide with during a walkmove or movetogoal is SOLID_TRIGGER entities.

So really all you need is to watch your triggers which respond to monsters when you're doing that kind of thing. In standard quake that's only really telefrag and trigger_hurt - which you could guard against with a quick change of takedamage.

If you really get into that kind of thing you can go down the route of having a 'proxy' entity instead. I was trying to think about what you'd need to do to get the proxy perfect. The think you'd need to get right is .owner, which would take 3 transformations:

1)Set the owner of monster's owner to the proxy.
2)Set the owner of proxy to the the monster.
3)Set the owner of everything else in the world currently owned by monster to proxy.

You also need to store enough information to reverse all these changes.

This is of course absurd levels of effort. Just set the proxy's owner to the monster, and accept that occasionally it'll be blocked by an entity that owner settings would have let the monster walk through. Never realistically a problem. 

thanks, i hadn't thought about the 'premature triggering'. yeah, a proxy looks like the best bet.

when i needed a walkmove check to move through monsters, i just set all monsters to non-solid. :P 

or a flag on the entity you toggle on temporarily that you code into all triggers 'don't activate when this flag is on'. 

The takehome message of the last post is:
During a walkmove or movetogoal the monster will only collide with SOLID_TRIGGER entities.

I want to add that only the trigger's touch function is activated, the engine does not call the monster's touch function with the trigger as other. 

So I adapted the code which I wrote last week answer that question about movetogoal. It turns out that even through touch functions, it restores the QC state correctly and doesn't overwrite self. This is admittedly run from a think function - it's possible that you could create a more complex scenario like calling movetogoal from a touch function and then causing another touch function.

But I thought I'd share it with you because it made me practice a few diagnostic tools for QC, some of which you may not be aware of.

The first is just chucking in a load of dprint statements, I'm sure most people have done that before. Don't forget that you can use ftos() and vtos() to put more information into the statements. If you need to confirm the value of an entity variable (as I wanted to with self) you can use the eprint() function instead.

The second tool is a bit of a hack. It allows you to get a stack trace. This was particularly valuable in this case because of the concern that the touch function might be trashing the stack. But it would be of use in any case where you have an interaction between think and touch functions causing a bug, and you want to know what is calling what.

There's no command or QC builtin for a stack trace, but you get one if you manage to perform an invalid operation in QC. The infinite loop is one way to do this, but personally I prefer the null function call, it's a bit quicker. Just throw something like

world.think1();

and unless the map is particularly weird you'll get your error. Of course, this does shut down the entire server, so it's not for general use.

The last trick is pretty powerful but also has the potential to spam the entire console out. The QC builtins traceon() and traceoff() allow you to enable console output of every Qasm instruction that the server reads - including the register values that were employed.

I believe Qasm is a neologism, and if so I demand it be pronounced as "chasm". It refers to the bytecode that a QC compiler creates - effectively Quake Assembly code. You can use one of the options in FTEQCC to output the assembly to a file, which is a good way to learn what the trace output means.

(As an aside FTEQCC also lets you enter segments entirely in Qasm. This is in the same way as c compilers accept asm segments - and indeed the original quake engine did just that in the renderer to get tight loops fast enough for the Pentium 75s to run the game. I believe most modern ports strip the assembly out. Even so, in quake Qasm is a great way to do naughty things that the compiler won't let you...) 

because i distinctly remember after putting in the self restoration bit that it fixed a problem with walkmoves not being called after movetogoal. 

We might have to share some code here to determine why we're getting different results. If you whack an eprint(self) in before you restore self do you get the trigger entity that you touched come up? 

yeah, i guess i could have at least tried it out to see.

you're right, self isn't being lost when touching triggers. trying to figure out now would be pointless though, because the code has change by a huge amount since last time i posted about it. 

is it bad to call setorigin(self) in a touch function? does that cause the touchlinks warning in fitz?

i googled the forums, but i don't think it was ever really explained what this error is, only that it used to crash in e2m2. 

I'm not brilliant at following how the engine handles this touch stuff, but here goes:

The following functions could cause problems with sv_touchlinks:

setorigin
setsize
droptofloor
movetogoal
walkmove

All these functions can cause the entity to be relinked, which potentially causes the issue. There are some other conditions that need to be met before the error is encountered: firstly the entity has to be part of the same areanode as the touch is coming from*. My understanding is that there are 32 areanodes in a map to reduce the number of entities considered in the collision code by approx. that factor.

The other important thing is that the entity has to actually break the chain of linked entities at exactly the point that sv_touchlinks is operating. I believe that this translates to applying any of the dangerous functions to other, but again not too sure how all the code fits together.

A final small point is that even if do apply one of the dangerous functions to other (and since we're in a touch function with other it's safe to assume by now that they share an areanode) we might still get away with it. This case would occur when other is the first entity in the areanode - relinking it will reinsert it in the same place as before. There's no safe way to exploit this though, as it's determined entirely engine-side.

The last thing to remember is that sv_touchlinks only looks through the list of triggers, so anything that's not SOLID_TRIGGER* ought to be safe. Best of luck!



*Technically that should read "that wasn't SOLID_TRIGGER last time the entity got linked into the world" but that's a bit of a mouthful. All that means is that you can't quickly set the entity to SOLID_NOT and get away with anything, it's about whether the entity is truly a trigger according to the engine at that time...