I don't hold any personal grudges here and I don't regret being a part of the team. I do however feel that for every one thing you get right (Rage, Cauteriser, ZKnights, Boss2, all the great brushwork), there come two that set the project back (what I listed above). 

We'll get plenty more wrong. 

Nobody is dismissing criticisms; that's a very narrow minded view to take. The whole *purpose* of a *demo* release is to get something out and guage feedback. This holds true of any mod or map. *Every* development cycle involves trying out ideas and seeing what happens, and sometimes the people involved in the development can get too close to what it is they're developing and not see what is obvious to everyone else.

Treating a *demo* release as if it's something carved in stone from the top of mount Sinai - "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE AND THEY SHALL NOT CHANGE" - only demonstrates your own lack of basic understanding. Treating an interim release as if it were the final product and judging the final product based on that interim release is plain stupid, no? This also holds true of any map or mod.

Lots of previously released content has already been changed based on feedback. I know because I gave some of that feedback at the time - and not all of it good either - but at least I tried to be constructive and generally enthusiastic about the overall goals. What a novel concept! 

For what it's worth.
Quoth and other mods like it have an advantage immediately over RMQ because you could make a map in Quoth that has nothing in it but what you like. Personally I don't like a couple of the new monsters or the plasma gun. But that's cool, the mod doesn't force me to use them, and I can happily make stuff that is the Quake I know and love but with the extra bits I like bolted on.

With RMQ, if you wanted to use it you are forced to deal with all of the other decisions the team made. Example: Instead of changing the basic behaviour of Monsters, just add a Super version (with an obvious reskin) that features the new abilities and keep the original as well. Instead of making the SSG super powered, just add a third tier shotgun etc.

To me mods are best when they are adding new elements that were otherwise absent, rather than adding stuff that may well be really cool but is otherwise already covered anyway (new gameplay opportunities over 'style' I suppose). I've already posted that I don't like Nailgun ogres, but in RMQ I don't understand the point of the dual chainsaw ogre. You already have Dogs, Knights, DKnights or Fiends for melee, think about new and interesting attacks to add, rather than a new form of something you already have. Quake has no version of the Mancabus, or Archvile, or Revenant (Vores seriously don't count) so there already you have three forms of attack that are not accounted for (and aren't even that original :p), and each would be more adaptable and useful than yet another melee monster.


Man if you want to make posts fly, get the drama rolling. 

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/hs847.snc4/71157_203557328309_2992449_n.jpg

Thought I'd get into the spirit of the thing. 

 

It's more about being quite tough and spreadfire (a spread that can be dodged unlike a shotgun). I dunno I don't recall seeing your rocket ogres :) 

Third shotty. I have already said I'm not keen on the new SSG. 

I noticed in the old e1m6 rmq demo, shooting ogres with the DBS knocked them back. This is a cool feature, I'd like it back, it adds an extra feeling of WHABAM to one of my favourite weapons. I _still_ think the Q1 DBS is underpowered and I'd be happy to have it more powerful; Doom2 and Quake2 got it better I thought. 

Well, the old Quake Shotgun was really a pistol, and the old DBS was really the shotgun, so the RMQ DBS should be the real double barrel shotgun 

The SG does fire like a pistol, except for the spread thing. A big-assed Desert Eagle.50 would have been better. 

Yeah the additional tier of shotgun is only really necessary if you are going to add more high tier monsters (like Doom 2) or larger numbers of regular monsters (again like Doom 2).

Doom also keeps the chaingun useful despite it's awful damage because it's accurate and stunlocks many monsters really well. Rocket launcher stays useful because it's the same damage per-shot but accurate and faster firing, so the chaingun and rocket launcher are Doom's sniping weapons, and vital to use on maps designed around that. :E

hmm, I've probably played way too much Doom. I should lie down. 

0h 

this is what
http://www.genitron.com/unique11.html 

otp seems determined to throw rotten tomatoes at us for now, which is a staple of any good comedy. Thanks for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IVFaRTJmmY

The SSG only outputs its monstrous amount of damage at point blank range, while the RL is less useful at exactly that range due to splash damage and self hurt.

That is exactly what a toolkit weapon system should do. The two weapons excel in very different situations.

I admit this is pretty complex.

SG vs Pistol: This observation is correct, you could substitute a kind of pistol for Quake's SG with very little effect on the gameplay (Hellsmash does this, Malice does this as well).

Fall damage and removal of monstercount have probably been on the nerf list even before otp left the team, so I have no idea why this keeps coming up, and I guess once these get fixed (next demo) it will be something else.

One of Quoth's principles is to not go against the player's expectations. Quoth also doesn't do requests. These two restrictions were pretty much the incentive for RMQ as a mod. As a smart person once said, requests are what made RMQ.

And if someone wants just the Elder Ogre in his map, well, RMQ is open source - go and rip it and start your own thing.

We won't stop you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmjnYKlVnM&feature=related 

That's kind of his point; 'oh, he's just throwing rotten tomatoes'.

Try actually taking some of the critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going 'well, we know better, so whatever'.

Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics. No-one cares anymore. Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime. 

Gb goes on to respond to each of the points in turn after the rotten tomatoes comment. Rj in his posts is also very clear headed and patient.

The team Quoth got one thing perfectly right the first time round - they didn't want feedback from nobody online that wasn't carefully hand-picked.

As mentioned, we wanted to do something more accessible.

...critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going...

In fact, this (thread) is the first lump of beer we haven't chewed over. There are some worthwhile comments in here, so we probably will sooner or later.

Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime.

Ok! 

Hm. 'beef' I meant.

Going to go get a beer. 

If this thread had started out as a source of valid criticism then things would have been different, but (aside from Baker's OP) it's not until post #31 that the first meaningful and useful thing was said. Until that point it was just the same old tired faces making the same old tired snide comments and trying to paint the situation as if the RMQ team had some kind of major butthurt on.

Meanwhile the thread that Baker (who is not even a member of the team - do your basic research folks) started got renamed to support that butthurt hypothesis.

Criticism aimed at improving the project is always a good thing. "Fuck This Thread Fuck You Fuck RemakeQuake", "RMQ is still a shitty ass mod", "just make a fucking forum thread about this, did you. Your site/blog whine was already pretty borderline stupid, but this is just getting pathetic" on the other hand says more about the people making these comments than anything else.

So what on earth is the problem here anyway? A bunch of folks decide to get together to make some content that does X, Y and Z and publicly talk about what they're up to. A bunch of other folks decide to get their panties in a huge fucking twist over it. Please enlighten me. 

at the amount of animosity RMQ has generated, I mean, how is not possible for a Q1SP fan to be super happy that people are making this, AND that they're listening to non-team members' feedback on demos/etc and even requests on how things should work. I can't understand how hostility could be generated by this. Plus like, aren't we all really old now? heh. I do find the new title for this thread humorous though. 

Try actually taking some of the critisism on board rather than just arrogantly going 'well, we know better, so whatever'.

Folks... read the demo2 thread? Haven't I like, patiently nodded every time Shambler criticized something? And haven't we like, released a demo so people actually *could* criticize it in the first place? Don't I run an RMQ dev blog (I'm not talking about my own blog, I mean the RMQ one) and go to the trouble of answering comments?

I meant it when I said, "these things will be addressed in a point release". That's kinda exactly what you describe. I also replied in earnest to the shotgun etc. comments.

But it seems more and more that we *are* bending over backwards to appease random trolls, indeed, and that we should stop doing that. This post is probably already a waste of time. I should manage my time better.

Not that I'd expect anything less from a mod that has not only been in development for how many years now but is continually referenced in posts saying how x, y or z is 'in remake quake you know (because it's _objectively_ the best thing ever)' in response to completely unrelated topics.

Where?

No-one cares anymore. Finish it, release it and stfu about it in the meantime.

I thought this was a dev forum though? As far as I see, we're mostly talking about it in its own thread(s). Don't read them, then. I'm pretty sure there's always been tons of talk in the community. But apparently there are new, different rules for us.

Also, this community is pretty small. There aren't that many places to talk about the stuff you're doing.

A couple people are just mad because we don't suck up to them enough. It is sad, but I believe that is the core of the problem. 

One of Quoth's principles is to not go against the player's expectations. Quoth also doesn't do requests. These two restrictions were pretty much the incentive for RMQ as a mod. As a smart person once said, requests are what made RMQ.

See this is an important point, because most people are dumb. Let me reiterate: Most people are idiots! You do not want to listen to them!



(lol yes me included lol don't listen to me rolf) 

Right now it's called "Thinly-veiled Remake Quake Tedious Beef Thread." which seems about right.

Also, czg is right. 

No, I'm not part of the Remake Quake team nor do I have an objections to the criteria Spirit uses.

Rather I am a bit concerned about the anti-creativity vibe I see some emit in their posts.

To the One True Purple: Rubicon2 isn't stock id1 Quake. To be stock id1 Quake, you have to use base progs.dat. 

Quake-Life: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWl1S20sxug ... kind of a neat experiment Avirox did in 2008.

And I started this thread not because someone doesn't have the right to dislike the sounds or the grapple or whatever in Remake Quake.

But I think it is sheer anti-intellectual ignorance to read some of the less intelligent posts I've seen about how someone shouldn't even be modding Quake.

That kind of backwoods flathead caveman thinking is the kind of thing that really is a bit offensive to anyone who can see the forest from the trees.