You are most likely right that the next logical step would be to use the custom sets created for Quake first in the order of things. I'd like to see a Doom attempt sometime though too.

I was over my brother's the other weekend playing some old style LAN head to head Doom Death Match, and he had the ZDoom build installed with the Doom 2 retextures, and OMG! were they truly stunning. I got fragged more times from being distracted by the layouts than any smart moves my brother made.

Now I know why those TeamShambler guys always complained about maps being too hard and the combat too distracting for their walk arounds. 

have doom speedmaps. check out doomworld.com or something.

also: i still haven't played any of the quake flavoured speedmaps. i'm waiting for the superrelease or i'll just play them all at the same time when i have the time.

cheers anyway. 

Can't really comment on DOE cos I've never played it

you philstine, sir!

really, everyone should try to play both mission packs, and personally i rate DOE significantly better than armagon. 

Now I know why those TeamShambler guys always complained about maps being too hard and the combat too distracting for their walk arounds.

Make sense, please. 

'Make sense, please.'

Oh come off of it, Shambler, you know exactly what I'm talking about and so do any of the mappers who are familiar with the TeamShambler site. Make an attempt to read my remark in the inferred context I put it in, and the 'sense' I make is crystal clear.

How many excellent maps did you rate down because you thought they were too hard? In gameplay terms, you had a very wimpish standard in your reviews.

Here are just a few examples.

"Unfortunately that same complex layout does lead to some odd situations where you'll have cleared out some areas, with difficulty, earlier on in the map, and they're empty of monsters later. Also, although skill settings are present, some players may find the gameplay a bit too gruelling in places."

Review of CZG03

"Again, I do have a few criticisms: a couple of sections can be very hard to survive first go, the end is fairly challenging but not the quite apocalyptic climax I expected, and most seriously, the skill settings make little difference, meaning it could be unpleasantly hard for some players. But if you are up to the challenge, the gameplay is rewarding indeed."

Review of DaMaul6

"On the downside, as well as the minor flaws mentioned above, some may find this level rather hard in places. Aside from that the gameplay is good, and the architecture is just great, and overall it is one of the best base levels ever - go play!"

Review of Rubicon review.

"Architecture elsewhere is good too. Gameplay is fair overall, and the rocket launcher is a welcome relief, but the introduction of the lethal insect/human enemy, in an area where you go a *very* long way without any health is frustrating and badly unbalanced. Aside from that problem, it's good, but challenging."

Review of Neh1m5

No one ever played Quake just to have their balls tickled, so next time you pick of the pen to review please leave your teacup home.

My case is made and my case is hereby closed, and the only thing left for you to do is say, 'Oh, you have got me there, HeadThump. I apologize for being an obstinate jackass. In the future I will try to be more civil on my end of our discourse.'

That said, TeamShambler is an extremely valuable resource for anyone interested in the Quake single player scene, so I don't get any pleasure having to make such a public correction of your behavior, but you did confront me and make a false accusation questioning my abilaty to write in clearly stated English.

I hope this posting serves as a fair warning to you if you so decide to keep to the scurrilous standards you exhibited here of what you can expect in the future. 

My arse.

Now I know why those TeamShambler guys

What guys??

always complained

What complaints??

about maps being too hard and the combat too distracting

Distracting?? What on Earth do you mean??

for their walk arounds.

What walk arounds?? Do you mean "reviews"??

Sorry to disappoint you, but there is no way in hell I'm falling for your retarded trolling. So you were a better player than me, like I give a shit. Equally some people were worse players and found maps much harder. For God's sake if you're going to try a windup, try harder. 

I can write English but not Func_Qmap tags, obviously. 

it's useless to fight with shambler ;)

headthump, go map better 

Sm58 blah blah. Quake would be a lot more fun these days if my fucking mouse worked properly. Ummm yeah so it was the usual bollox, quite inferior to the previous 3 sessions IMHO. I liked Xen's with the Fiend jumping from the water, and Starbucks was in the spirit of things. Oh yeah, the start and finish to Scampie's had a cool E4 vibe. But yeah blah boollox etc. Someone fix my fucking mouse already. 

TeamShambler reviews weren't 'rated', they are just Shambler's opinions. If you don't like them, write your own reviews.

Now. If a map is difficult, it should be pointed out. Most of those reviews were written when Quake was still alive and kicking and there were many casual players playing custom maps. Shambler's reviews reflected the view of a player expecting to enjoy a map. Use of skill settings is a large part of this.

If a map played in normal difficulty was reasonably harder to beat than an average id map played at normal, it SHOULD be pointed out. Skill settings are there for the players to choose how hard a map is to play. Not everyone is awesome at Quake. Good map design keeps this in mind to ensure fun for everyone, and that is what Shambler's reviews reflect.

Saying 'this map is hard' does not mean 'this map sucks'. Challenges can be fun for some, and it should be up to the player to decide.


Anyway. Quit trying to start a fight. You threw in an extra comment to your post that had nothing to do with what's being discussed (speedmaps, remember?) and Shambler wasn't clear on what you said. I suggest you stop turning this into a fight becuase you'll find you will not be well liked here if you get in battles with long standing community members. 

 

I was not trying to start a fight. My intention was to nip one in the bud before it got started and make it clear that I wont tolerate ad hominem attacks, especially when my original comment was a gentle dig at a tendency Shambler has in his reviews. I happen to think the work he did on the TeamShambler was excellent in the development of standards for Quake mappers.

You are right that this has drifted off subject and to a substantial degree that that is my fault, though I find your opinion to be one sided.

My original comment was on critical standards, whereas his comment and later comment were based upon the clarity of my language and my rhetorical abilities. I may be the new guy here, but I don't deserve to be treated disrespectfully nor will I tolerate it.

Shambler: As you should already be well aware of and as it has been established as the standard civilized people have lived by for thousands of years, when you descend in to personal attacks, you have already lost the argument.

Vondur: Great advice, I will try to fallow it. Flame wars sap too much creative energy that should be used else where. ;)

Finally, I played the map pack and the standards have really climbed over the past several weeks. The maps were varied and most importantly complete. Kudos for loosening up the rules in regard to the time factor, Scampie. 

/me selects easy skill 

It's not a popularity contest, quit trying to win. I'm the only egomaniac allowed here.

Let's go back to discussion of the topic at hand, if you think your points are so imporant, let's discuss them in a new thread.

http://www.celephais.net/board/view_thread.php?id=9680 

Oh God what sanctimonious drivel. HeadThump why do you persist in this trolling, you are fooling no-one at all.

"Ad hominem attacks"

"Personal insults"

You think "make sense" is an insult?? Oh, boo hoo, cry me a river. You ever been online before?? Asking someone to make sense when they've posted a random and incoherent moan (which, of course, you still haven't acknowledged or explained, see post #31) is hardly the pinnacle of personal insults. Then, of course, you post an insulting, pointless, and entirely meaningless rant against me....fine words for your high and mighty attitude.

"'Oh, you have got me there, HeadThump. I apologize for being an obstinate jackass. In the future I will try to be more civil on my end of our discourse.'"

Well, how about this for an apology:

'HeadThump, you're a pompous, egotistical, self-deluding twat who is posting tedious shite without any idea of what you're talking about (see Scampie's reply that shows how ignorant you are).' 

Headthump, you'd lost the argument before you even started posting simply because you didn't have a case. Firstly, he hasn't reviewed there for about two years, and secondly, it's not a score-based map-ranking site and the 'rating down' of maps which you speak of is clearly bollocks. That was the most pointless rant I've ever read. 

How 'bout that SpeedMap Pack 58, eh? 

Scampie kind of hinted that he did not want this discussion to continue so I did not address the claims you made in your 2nd to last posting, Shambler.

Despite my attempt to soften the blow by pointing out your strengths (and I even offered you a way out of this, afterall), I obviously hurt your feelings and for that I apologize to you.

You have questions concerning the intent of my original posting, and I'll try to give you an unqualified answer.

'now I know what those TeamShambler guys'
'what guys?' you asked?

Before I wrote this, I had no idea that you were affiliated with TeamShambler. The sites closing statement kind of had a finality about it so I did not associate Shambler with TeamShambler. When you posted,'make sense, please', I checked with the FAQ of your old site and that is how I knew for certain who you were.
'TEAMSHAMBLER'? Do you claim TeamShambler to be a one man army? Well, true or not, you should understand it if anyone makes the mistake of thinking there is more than one individual involved.

'complained about the maps being too hard and the combat being to distracting'

By this I meant,
'In your reviews, you obviously placed a higher value on the design of the layout and the virtual architecture represented on the map then on the combat with which you often expressed frustration.'

'walk around, what walk arounds, the Reviews?'.
No, walking around the level, admiring the layout.

Xen, you point out not a weakness in my argument, but a poor choice of wording on my part. 'Rating' only in the sense of quantifying a given subjects value which all reviewers do whether they use a rating system or not. 'Rating down' in this context means placing a higher value on some aspects of a map over other aspects, therefore, some maps are raved about for apealing to the reviewers taste, and others are not raved about even though their strong points are not to the reviewers taste. So, though there is no ranking system, Shambler is not immune to Human Nature.

'Pointless', Well, the subject of 'ratings' was never the central matter of this discussion, though you are by all rights entitled to change the discussions subject matter to reflect your concerns if you wish. However, the current 'point' of the discussion has been drilled in the ground many, many, many times over, and I only do so now as an exercise in masochism. 

So, though there is no ranking system, Shambler is not immune to Human Nature.

:p 

Need a shovel, mate? 

and for clarity:

of course shamblers reviews are the best reviews of maps i have ever read, i strive to reach his standards in my own reviews. :)

i just like headthumps choice of words. Language amuses and interests me. 

No thanks, but if you have a bulldozer to spare, I'd like that. 

Some pass me TEH CRACKPIPE too... 

...the Babelfish link as well. 

lolfap