for you, Willem:

http://shub-hub.com/files/demos_singleplayer/gbevil.zip

36 minutes, 90 kills, 0 secrets. Skill 1 IIRC.

Thanks for the map, the theme is nice and often well executed. I really liked the mine section, the base seemed a little bland at times, apart from the library, which was cool.

The outdoor section was somehow lacking. The sniping grunts with their insta-hit shotguns are ... hateable.

The upper story, with the two "huts", was a bit empty. Perhaps the lighting wasn't too interesting there, either.

The mines were my favourite part, although the corridors could have been bigger, and there should have been more health and ammo. I was very cautious because there were a lot of grunts and not much health.

It is easy to miss the thunderbolt and RA, because frankly, every part of the library looks the same. It's too symmetric I guess, maybe a center room would have been good. The grates with enforcers from below were good.

I would generally have liked more ammo, health, and a bigger weapon OR more room to maneuver. Don't make the mistake of expecting the player to have "secret X" here. You should never calculate with the secrets when putting in health, ammo etc. Always assume the player finds no secrets.

The fiends didn't work; see the demo. =??????

The centerprints should have been wav files; the map would have required something like Extras or Quoth then, but it would have been worth it.

I'm all for storytelling in Quake maps, though!

Another problem with the centerprints was that they didn't log to the console.

The ending was lacking; I just skipped the second shambler, because chipping away at him with the shotty wasn't bearable really. The shamblers in this case worked like turrets, by defining a "danger zone" but not really posing a threat. Let me get at them! :)

The problem with the shaft is that it has limited range; against the final shamblers (considering their placement) it wasn't really the right weapon.

More playtesting would have made this map better.

All in all:

Layout ++
Theme ++
Story ++

Atmosphere - (lighting, sounds, scale)
Action - (either more ammo or health, space)
Monster choice/placement - (sniping grunts, shamblers)

It appears to be a "head" map, as opposed to a "gut feeling" map. It is a nice theme though. I played cautiously because of the grunts, and because I wanted to submit a complete demo. 

i don't know why someone wants to see a "larger" map from willem, this seemed to be a good size for a quake map. 

centerprints are OK in principle, but they should go on one page. You can do line breaks in Quake :-P

I applaud the attempt at storytelling.

Make a second edition Willem! :) 

Plus, the onscreen messages got me fucked a coupla of times. No good reading with fiends and ogres jumping at you. Annoying.

Umm, you don't need to rush headfirst around the next corner while reading, especially since there were previous centerprints which should have established the concept. :-) 

I like how you missed the big flashing red button at the start location, gb. :) You found it eventually though...

As for the messages not going to the console, that's weird. They do in Fitz. 

Do you feel that E1M3 didn't convey its hideous, cavernous atmosphere because it lacked a centerprint? Sometimes architecture, lighting and sounds are enough.

That said, the mine part of this level was really good, great to see a fresh addition to the base theme. However it needed proper contrast (i.e. lighting, sounds) to the sunlit base area to make it really stand out.

Further commentary coming when I've finished playing the map (I suck). 

I missed it because I was busy writing a comment, then forgot to press. Also, I was suspicious there might be monsters behind it, so moved on and found other interesting things ... :-P

Other people didn't even read the centerprints, though...

It's pretty nice, the mine section and the stretch from the library to the lab entrance especially.

I'm still amazed that shooting a lamp will open a hidden door :-P

I also see that you can use the shaft on the shamblers. I miscalculated the range because I rarely use it; I don't play DM.

Shambler, I can't see your demo. Not version 15. AguirRe's engine? 

I really enjoyed this map. Very slick brushwork and detailing, pacing was good, and some nice visual storytelling with the ruins.

I agree with the others on a few points. The fiends were ineffective, the lighting in the outdoor section was flat and unrealistic (an obvious, angled sun light would have added so much here), and ammo was slightly skimpy.

Personally, I wanted the slipgate to take me to a final boss battle or reveal some cool vista. It felt like I fought so hard to open it and then the map just ended.

Still, a fun level, very nice work. 

nice map, i also think this is perfect size of a Quake map... after i finish tchak my maps will have all this kind of size!

first run!

http://trinca.quaddicted.com/temp/tr_evil.zip

gameplay was fun(never hard and never easy), had a little big luck in demons...
thks god i dind�t died! i got short amo at final area maby becouse i didn�t get any secret amo :(

p.s-> more please!!! 

"Do you feel that E1M3 didn't convey its hideous, cavernous atmosphere because it lacked a centerprint? Sometimes architecture, lighting and sounds are enough. "

I wanted to infuse something of the essence of the people who lived/worked there and that's difficult to do through architecture and lighting. It was an experiment - one that I probably won't repeat. 

This is a cool map with cool things in. Mines/ruins especially, library and shizzle too. 

Watching the demo I'm learning some great stuff:

- people generally like the sneak peak at the library at the start. lots of people stopped and looked at the goodies inside.

- the first secret is maybe too hard to find. trinca was looking upwards like crazy but still couldn't see the light fixture he needed to shoot.

- the fiends were a mistake. I needed to either completely rework the brushes in that area or lose them entirely.

- most people are getting through the level with ammo to spare despite all the bitching. :)

- the ending needed more ... punch. it worked out alright but it wasn't the fight I wanted it to be. needed more low level dudes, maybe.

- the mines worked out great. They came together nicely during editing and they offer a pretty unique look I haven't seen in many other levels.

- I need a break from the base set. there's only so much you can do before it all starts repeating itself.

- I'm happy to have gotten this level DONE. It's my first full Quake level in many, many years and it excites me that I can still bring one to completion. 

remember that in this place, you will get the biggest amount of bitching possible. Normal ppl will probably LOVE your levels :-P

And yeah, it is a good map. my second and third runs were much more enjoyable. All the comments I made were entirely from the perspective of encountering a totally new environment.

Do you want a 4th run demo? :) It's a gigantic difference.

Cheers.

And more plz ++ 

and not just this ending fight, but most ending fights.

it doesn't really build up to anything.

what i did was i would stay under cover and wait for the scrags to come into range and then i'd kill them from the ramps opposite of the shambler holder. then i'd go back up to where the button was and i'd snipe the shambler off.

then you get to the second one and the exact same thing happens.

it would have been cool if you used a trigger_count so that the second button not only opened the standard monsters but released extra scrags or lowered the shambler holder so he could get out and pose more of a threat.

and then, there's the inherent flaw with fighting a group of monsters: the challenge becomes less and less the more you kill. in a proper experience, the challenge should go up the further into the fight you get. sadly, this isn't really possible. (and not really your fault in this case, just a fault with shooters in general) 

I think I agree with Willem's comments.

For me, I tended to not read the centerprints because I have been trained to get all jumpy and paranoid when I press buttons :)

I got raped on my first drop into the mines, my fault for playing on nightmare I guess :) Ammo was certainly tight, had to try to avoid gibbing things, though if I'd got into the gl secret it would have been fine. A big box of cells behind the 'security door' would have been sweet, I think.

Architecture was very nice. There's something slightly strange about this modern style of base architecture and not having Quoth baddies.. 

Just kidding :)

I enjoyed this map, but my favorite part was exploring the interconnected rock tunnels. Gives the map a feeling that theres more out there than what you just see...

The only bug I found was one spot where I was standing waist high in the ground. Not sure if you intentionally did this or not, it just seemed odd. Here is a screenshot:

http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=quake28ae3.jpg

Great work Willem, hope to see more from you :) 

that's a good point; i think one general solution to it is to trigger more spawns on monster deaths. One way is to basically have waves of monsters, where wave 2 triggers on wave1's death, which means each wave still has the problem of diminishing challenge, even if each subsequent wave gets harder. If you do it with individual monsters each triggering a spawn of a tougher monster, then the challenge does go always up and never down, until the end of course when you kill the first monster of the final group.

You can also have the environment change as the level progresses, such as having less and less walkable floors over a lava pit, or something.

On the other hand, the idea of a large tough room full of guys, where you can pass a tipping point where you've killed enough that it gets easier, is a pretty standard building block of quake combat. Even just two guys in a hallway, once you kill one, it's easier. And because of that, the experience isn't really broken, as long as the challenge is good enough prior to reaching that tipping point.

Hmm, this reminds me that vores in round rooms solve this problem because the voreballs accumulate as you fight them, meaning the threat doesn't go away until you finally peel off the train of voreballs. Maybe a lesson in monster or combat design; have the threat outlast the monster who generates it. 

Hmm, this reminds me that vores in round rooms solve this problem because the voreballs accumulate as you fight them, meaning the threat doesn't go away until you finally peel off the train of voreballs.

i actually do not agree 100% with this.
it doesn't make a fight harder, it only increases the penalty for making a mistake.
it's just something that is frustrating, not challenging.
being chased by 20 voreballs or being attacked by 20 fiends isn't the same challenge.

(also, as a side note, it should be mentioned that in nightmare, voreballs move faster than the player making a fight like that impossible to win.) 

Fps games that involve hordes are all about wearing them down. I distrust the concept of death of creature X spawns creature Y because it almost certainly will result in some combination you never thought of, that fucks the player over.

You can get more complicated and make groupings, and groupings of, but unless you have more patience and time (not to mention prescience) than god, you'll never reach a point where it'll work.

The main reason why sucessful FPS's work is because they're easy, but give the impression of difficulty.

This was a fun map. Willem, where the fuck have you been - sprang this one like a trap :)

In my personal taste I'd like more complexity in the combats, but if you try to please everyone the game/map turns to crap.

More please; however you think they should be done. 

Voreballs don't move fatser than the player in NM, they just never miss. The best you can hope for when one or many is locked on is manouvering a monster into the way. 

yeah this place can be harsh, but it just pushes you to improve each time. overall the biggest improvement you could make imo is some big set peices. still a good map tho.

just played coagula2 contest yesterday aswell. loved distans' texturing, great to see a pro like tyrann doing a good map, although it was far too dark and cramped, necros' map was great, although the third enemy being a shambler really fucked me off :D the hk battle as cool. 

Voreballs don't move fatser than the player in NM, they just never miss.

in ShalHome:
if (skill == 3)
self.velocity = dir * 350;
else
self.velocity = dir * 250;

go into quake, type in the console "sv_maxspeed". it will tell you that it is 320.

350 > 320. therefore, in nightmare mode (skill == 3), voreballs move faster than the player and so combat without cover is impossible.

also, what does 'they just never miss.' mean anyway? voreballs don't miss, no matter what skill level is set. every 0.2 seconds, the voreball's trajectory is updated to point directly at the player. 

Voreballs don't move fatser than the player in NM, they just never miss. The best you can hope for when one or many is locked on is manouvering a monster into the way.

While the missiles still leave the vore's hand at 400ups, it's when they start homing (0.1 second for every 50 units away you are) that they slow down (to 350ups on nightmare and 250ups on other skill levels). While 350 is higher than the player's running speed (320), they are still avoidable if the player knows how to move... 

Orl

Doh! Damn ... oh well, I guess bugs will always get through.

ijed

"Willem, where the fuck have you been - sprang this one like a trap"

Been working on this map. :) 

stop doing maths and get mapping! :D